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#Post#: 130429--------------------------------------------------
Re: English rugby is average from top to bottom
DIR By: Yareet
Date: November 18, 2024, 10:10 am
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--- Quote from: Quinky link ---
>
> Using SA as an example is flawed. They have far greater depth
across the board. Wilco would probably be considered third or
fourth in line, yet steps in with no drop in quality. Maybe
halfbacks are not so plentiful, but still they have quality
backups.
>
> England (in many positions) either have a clear-cut first
choice, or don't seem to know what gameplan they're going for.
Hence players are picked out of position, presumably just to get
them on the pitch. Then you have those picked on reputation or
historical performances.
>
--- End Quote ---
Not sure if you're agreeing with me, Quinks but it sounds as if
you are.
If we don't use SA as the example of picking overseas players,
we have to look at Argentina or Scotland as the next highest
ranked teams. Happy to be proven wrong but I think I can speak
on behalf of both of us and say that neither of those teams is
likely to win a championship/World Cup in the near future.
So, perhaps the only way to make it work with players based
overseas is to have SA levels of strength in depth. Or more
likely, there is no one right answer so nobody can categorically
know that picking overseas players would make England better.
#Post#: 130430--------------------------------------------------
Re: English rugby is average from top to bottom
DIR By: MaidstoneQuin
Date: November 18, 2024, 11:44 am
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With the player pool and overall resources we have compared to
say Ireland, it’s frankly embarrassing where we are in the
rankings. The common theme is the RFU which from grassroots to
the very top is run like an old boys club or some secretive
society and is the real reason English rugby has been held back.
From rewarding financial failures, to standing by watching other
teams drown and slip below the surface, they are the culprits.
We need some kind of real disrupter as a head coach to stop the
rot, not some RFU yes man like Borthwick
#Post#: 130431--------------------------------------------------
Re: English rugby is average from top to bottom
DIR By: Quinky
Date: November 18, 2024, 11:46 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Yareet link ---
>
> Not sure if you're agreeing with me, Quinks but it sounds as
if you are.
>
> If we don't use SA as the example of picking overseas players,
we have to look at Argentina or Scotland as the next highest
ranked teams. Happy to be proven wrong but I think I can speak
on behalf of both of us and say that neither of those teams is
likely to win a championship/World Cup in the near future.
>
> So, perhaps the only way to make it work with players based
overseas is to have SA levels of strength in depth. Or more
likely, there is no one right answer so nobody can categorically
know that picking overseas players would make England better.
>
--- End Quote ---
I think we're pretty much on the same page.
Another issue that I believe England have is in selection. A
couple of good games and)or your face fits - guaranteed a hatful
if caps, irrespective if form or competition. Some examples
being Ben Youngs, Dan Cole, Manu, Slade, Farrell.
Youngs was selected in spite of better options (including
latterly an in-form DC).
Cole - seriously, second best English tighthead?
Manu - selected as long as he could pull his boots on.
Slade - has he got pictures of Borthwick with a goat?
Farrell - had to be in the team, in whatever position.
This is detrimental for two reasons - firstly, you're not
picking the best options. Secondly, by ignoring other talent
you're risking them upping sticks.
No player should be deemed undroppable. Apart from Marcus
😁
Seriously, do NZ or SA fear dropping underperforming players?
#Post#: 130433--------------------------------------------------
Re: English rugby is average from top to bottom
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: November 18, 2024, 12:22 pm
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Spencer and Furbank got dropped last week. Underhill has
struggled to keep his shirt. Ethan Roots got binned off in
favour of CCS. Bevan Rodd, Raffi Quirke, Hassell-Collins have
all come and gone. Plenty of others too.
Cole is there because all the other tightheads are worse.
There's a reason why Fasogbon is being fast tracked. And Danny
was squarely in the "not performing for England but still
getting selected" bracket for some time!
#Post#: 130434--------------------------------------------------
Re: English rugby is average from top to bottom
DIR By: Quinky
Date: November 18, 2024, 1:52 pm
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--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> Spencer and Furbank got dropped last week. Underhill has
struggled to keep his shirt. Ethan Roots got binned off in
favour of CCS. Bevan Rodd, Raffi Quirke, Hassell-Collins have
all come and gone. Plenty of others too.
>
> Cole is there because all the other tightheads are worse.
There's a reason why Fasogbon is being fast tracked. And Danny
was squarely in the "not performing for England but still
getting selected" bracket for some time!
>
--- End Quote ---
Which shows some faces just don't fit. And if Dan Cole, who must
be nearly 70, is really the best tighthead around... England
should go play touch rugby. He might be (and might not be) solid
in the scrum. Is that it? Give Fasogbon a chance at least, it's
3 years till the next RWC. Or should Cole still be first choice
in 2027?
What's the logic behind Youngs, Farrell, Manu, Slade?
#Post#: 130435--------------------------------------------------
Re: English rugby is average from top to bottom
DIR By: Yareet
Date: November 18, 2024, 2:14 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> Spencer and Furbank got dropped last week. Underhill has
struggled to keep his shirt. Ethan Roots got binned off in
favour of CCS. Bevan Rodd, Raffi Quirke, Hassell-Collins have
all come and gone. Plenty of others too.
>
> Cole is there because all the other tightheads are worse.
There's a reason why Fasogbon is being fast tracked. And Danny
was squarely in the "not performing for England but still
getting selected" bracket for some time!
>
--- End Quote ---
In the interests of accuracy, Rodd and Quirke haven’t been
binned. They’re both injured and mentioned in the squad as being
unavailable.
Assuming he’s fit, I can imagine that Rodd will be in the 6N
squad - especially now that Joe has retired.
As you say, the problem at 3 is that there aren’t many
English-qualified tightheads doing well in the Prem.
Looking at the last round before the squad met up, the options
were:
Palframan/MacCallum
Street/Iosefa-Scott
Davison/Green
Asher OF/Harper
Lahiff/Kloska
Riccioni/Clarey
Titi/Lewis
Stuart/du Toit
Heyes/Cole
Gotovtsev/Fasogbon
Who you picking from that lot? And you can’t have du Toit
😂
#Post#: 130437--------------------------------------------------
Re: English rugby is average from top to bottom
DIR By: RodneyRegis
Date: November 18, 2024, 4:03 pm
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--- Quote from: Seequin link ---
>
> I agree about lifting the overseas ban rule. It is playing
international rugby with one hand tied behind your back.
> If you want to charge top rates for seats at Twickenham crowds
want to see the best players not good but not top players
losing.
>
--- End Quote ---
No.
#Post#: 130439--------------------------------------------------
Re: English rugby is average from top to bottom
DIR By: MaidstoneQuin
Date: November 19, 2024, 12:45 am
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I think to make going abroad less appealing for the payday, and
thus retaining our best, maybe Labour should think about some
special tax for them. Stick it in a 60% tax bracket and jobs a
goodun
#Post#: 130443--------------------------------------------------
Re: English rugby is average from top to bottom
DIR By: deadlyfrom5yardsout
Date: November 19, 2024, 2:00 am
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If you increased the severity of the playing overseas rule to,
say, you will never play for England again, or you cant play for
England again until 2 RWC cycles have passed then that would
focus the mind.
It would also free up International spaces for those that
actually want to play for England.
#Post#: 130445--------------------------------------------------
Re: English rugby is average from top to bottom
DIR By: Quinky
Date: November 19, 2024, 2:17 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: deadlyfrom5yardsout link ---
>
> If you increased the severity of the playing overseas rule to,
say, you will never play for England again, or you cant play for
England again until 2 RWC cycles have passed then that would
focus the mind.
> It would also free up International spaces for those that
actually want to play for England.
>
--- End Quote ---
Not if there's no realistic chance of being given an
opportunity.
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