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#Post#: 130411--------------------------------------------------
English rugby is average from top to bottom
DIR By: DOK
Date: November 18, 2024, 3:55 am
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If they were a Premier League team they would be Bournemouth.
HTML https://archive.is/YFTHz
With the usual caveats about comparing the teams over different
time periods.
#Post#: 130412--------------------------------------------------
Re: English rugby is average from top to bottom
DIR By: PinguthePenQuin
Date: November 18, 2024, 4:06 am
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Don't really know football, but I'd say that's harsh on
Bournemouth.
#Post#: 130413--------------------------------------------------
Re: English rugby is average from top to bottom
DIR By: Seequin
Date: November 18, 2024, 4:32 am
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I agree about lifting the overseas ban rule. It is playing
international rugby with one hand tied behind your back.
If you want to charge top rates for seats at Twickenham crowds
want to see the best players not good but not top players
losing.
#Post#: 130414--------------------------------------------------
Re: English rugby is average from top to bottom
DIR By: Yareet
Date: November 18, 2024, 5:11 am
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--- Quote from: Seequin link ---
>
> I agree about lifting the overseas ban rule. It is playing
international rugby with one hand tied behind your back.
> If you want to charge top rates for seats at Twickenham crowds
want to see the best players not good but not top players
losing.
>
--- End Quote ---
Hard disagree from me.
Take this series as an example. Willis would've missed the NZ
game (out of the Test window) and I believe played for Toulouse
at 8pm on the day after. At best he can therefore travel to
Pennyhill on the Monday which should be his recovery day.
He gets to take part in the big midweek training sessions
(Tuesday/Wednesday) having had no recovery and plays v
Australia? Or are we just bringing him in for the SA game?
Plus, at a time when the RFU is trying to keep players in
England through hybrid contracts, it makes no sense to say that
playing abroad is fine. Good luck keeping any of the stars in
the Prem if that's the case.
I also think using SA as the example of why we should play
overseas players suits an agenda. However, it ignores the fact
that numbers 2-4 in the world all pick solely from home-based
players - including the team who were arguably a red card away
from winning RWC2023.
Lastly (and this is purely my perception), it seems that SA are
slowly bringing players back. Of the squad for this tour, 12 of
34 are playing outside SA. In RWC2023, it was 16 of 33 (17/34 if
you include Pollard). Partly that reflects different players
picked but there are also the likes of Kolisi and Esterhuizen
who have returned.
#Post#: 130419--------------------------------------------------
Re: English rugby is average from top to bottom
DIR By: Quinky
Date: November 18, 2024, 6:23 am
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--- Quote from: Yareet link ---
>
> Hard disagree from me.
>
> Take this series as an example. Willis would've missed the NZ
game (out of the Test window) and I believe played for Toulouse
at 8pm on the day after. At best he can therefore travel to
Pennyhill on the Monday which should be his recovery day.
>
> He gets to take part in the big midweek training sessions
(Tuesday/Wednesday) having had no recovery and plays v
Australia? Or are we just bringing him in for the SA game?
>
> Plus, at a time when the RFU is trying to keep players in
England through hybrid contracts, it makes no sense to say that
playing abroad is fine. Good luck keeping any of the stars in
the Prem if that's the case.
>
> I also think using SA as the example of why we should play
overseas players suits an agenda. However, it ignores the fact
that numbers 2-4 in the world all pick solely from home-based
players - including the team who were arguably a red card away
from winning RWC2023.
>
> Lastly (and this is purely my perception), it seems that SA
are slowly bringing players back. Of the squad for this tour, 12
of 34 are playing outside SA. In RWC2023, it was 16 of 33 (17/34
if you include Pollard). Partly that reflects different players
picked but there are also the likes of Kolisi and Esterhuizen
who have returned.
>
--- End Quote ---
Using SA as an example is flawed. They have far greater depth
across the board. Wilco would probably be considered third or
fourth in line, yet steps in with no drop in quality. Maybe
halfbacks are not so plentiful, but still they have quality
backups.
England (in many positions) either have a clear-cut first
choice, or don't seem to know what gameplan they're going for.
Hence players are picked out of position, presumably just to get
them on the pitch. Then you have those picked on reputation or
historical performances.
#Post#: 130423--------------------------------------------------
Re: English rugby is average from top to bottom
DIR By: The Absolute Quintet
Date: November 18, 2024, 7:58 am
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The 'is the premiership good enough' point is certainly worth
looking at but ripping the guts out of it by letting England's
best go to France is a very high price.
As for the Lawrence example, there are two reasons why he
struggled v SA and both are nothing to do with quality of the
premiership. (1) Slade inside him is no running threat so SA
centres know he's going to give it. Slade shouldn't be in that
side. This is a selection issue. If Marchant hadn't been frozen
out, it could have been him and Lawrence as England centres,
which is an entirely different running threat. (2) England's
attacking shape had no depth against SA. It was better v NZ with
Lawrence at 12, but with the wrong 12 on the pitch and so little
pace, Sleightholme accepted, and variety, Sleightholme included,
offered by the back 3, this was predictable.
There's plenty that should be fixed before dismantling the
premiership.
#Post#: 130424--------------------------------------------------
Re: English rugby is average from top to bottom
DIR By: Nico Wilson
Date: November 18, 2024, 8:07 am
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Isn't there a slightly different issue here? The salary cap has
come down and there's less clubs in the Prem than pre Covid.
This means that there's less £££ available overall to hold the
top players in England as well as a smaller pool of players.
Opening up the Prem to, say, 14 clubs and assuming each club has
a squad of 50 players (to keep the maths easy), means that
there's an extra 200 top flight player jobs available in
England.
Whether there's enough wealthy owners to support 14 clubs is
another question........
#Post#: 130426--------------------------------------------------
Re: English rugby is average from top to bottom
DIR By: euroquin
Date: November 18, 2024, 8:53 am
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There's no money in English rugby full stop. As you hint, the
only way to fund 14 clubs with a higher salary cap would be to
let wealthy owners let rip. You'd effectively be letting a few
clubs dominate through financial means whilst the others
withered (and likely go the way of LI, Worcester and Wasps).
In essence, as the article suggests, the Prem is neither rich
enough nor good enough (any more). For players to get better
they need to play at a higher level which means France (or Super
Rugby) whilst being paid well (which means France).
#Post#: 130427--------------------------------------------------
Re: English rugby is average from top to bottom
DIR By: T-Bone
Date: November 18, 2024, 9:18 am
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Good article. Thanks for posting. Damning, but hard to disagree
#Post#: 130428--------------------------------------------------
Re: English rugby is average from top to bottom
DIR By: Quinston Churchill
Date: November 18, 2024, 9:32 am
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Bournemouth is harsh. We’re usually a top 6 side with a
puncher’s chance in the RWC, often making the latter stages.
We’re not in a good moment, but I don’t believe it’s terminal.
If it really was that bad, our sides would never get beyond the
group stages in European competitions etc.
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