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#Post#: 130371--------------------------------------------------
Re: England v South Africa 16/11
DIR By: Banstead Quin
Date: November 17, 2024, 4:18 am
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--- Quote from: championes link ---
>
> Sadly Dommers shouldn’t be anywhere near an England shirt.
Rest of the bench were just as bad.
>
--- End Quote ---
I liked the comment but for clarity, not because he's not up to
it, because the (laughable lack of) game plan isn't for him.
Now, and I can't believe I'm saying this, Matt Dawson made a
good point that if you have Earl, CCS & Underhill with their
grunt and power, why do you have a more silky player like
Dommers on the bench?
Hard to argue with that when a more destructive forward would
keep the system going.
There was one point after George went off when you had the VCs
standing there trying to figure out what to do. Itoje, Genge,
Slade and for some reason Earl so 3 forwards and 1 back. Result
was, kick to the corner, balls up the lineout. They might have a
lot of caps and experience but still feel like they've got Owen
Farrell guiding them.
#Post#: 130372--------------------------------------------------
Re: England v South Africa 16/11
DIR By: A222Quin
Date: November 17, 2024, 4:52 am
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To be fair to Faz (and I rarely am), I think he’d have taken the
3 at some point before the multiple failed moves from the
lineout drives.
If I’m being critical of Marcus, his kicks to touch from
penalties were pretty average all game. Very little distance on
them.
#Post#: 130373--------------------------------------------------
Re: England v South Africa 16/11
DIR By: MaidstoneQuin
Date: November 17, 2024, 6:09 am
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--- Quote from: A222Quin link ---
>
> To be fair to Faz (and I rarely am), I think he’d have taken
the 3 at some point before the multiple failed moves from the
lineout drives.
>
> If I’m being critical of Marcus, his kicks to touch from
penalties were pretty average all game. Very little distance on
them.
>
--- End Quote ---
Both are good points. I don’t think there’s much leadership on
field, as with all the hilarious number of vice captains there’s
little to no intelligence displayed to manage games at key
points.
Slade seemed to have better joy, so maybe if he isn’t dropped he
can at least contribute something to the game which would be a
first for him
#Post#: 130374--------------------------------------------------
Re: England v South Africa 16/11
DIR By: The Kid
Date: November 17, 2024, 6:33 am
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The logical breakpoint to stick or twist with Borthwick and co.
is the end of the six nations, unless we lose, or are in some
way abject, against what is a really weak Japan side next week.
Gives him and the squad the opportunity to prove how close we
really are. Anything less than 4 or 5 wins, and he’s gone.
I don’t buy that this is a team in transition.
They’re experienced. The *average* of the starting pack
yesterday was 49 caps. It should be able to get close games over
the line.
2025 is a lions summer and a good time to instill a new identity
under a new coach and blood a load of new players who are going
to a) play in whatever new style a new coach ends up settling
on, and b) be there beyond 2027.
Borthwick is currently doing neither; the identity is confused.
It was getting there, but having lost Felix Jones – the
one bright spot post world cup was the blitz in the six nations
and in NZ, the defensive identity is now really weird and
confused. The attack is overly simplistic, and relies on one or
two star players (Marcus, Feyi-Waboso, and to a lesser extent,
Furbank) to spin gold from nothing, and this is nothing like
picking an approach and sticking to it, like those that France,
Ireland, or even the boks have chosen to master over a period of
time.
On the one hand, we have seen that Borthwick has been able to
galavanise a side, instill a limited identity and play a certain
(albeit dull and functional) style that had us within a point of
the world cup final (and had we got there, we’d have had a
real shot at the All Blacks too). However, that identity was
crap to watch, and doesn’t work with the players he now
has, nor the updated laws of the game around kick chase and box
kicking.
Subsequently, he hasn’t found a new style, and the bits
that were good (blitz d) have deteriorated as he hasn’t
kept his staff together. To boot, he isn’t picking a side
that allows for any coherent style of play over a series of
games in order to perfect it, or even across an entire 80 mins,
even if he had one. If you want to play a power game (like the
starting XV was set up yesterday) don’t pick Isiekwe,
Dombrandt, and Randall on the bench.
It’s also happened in the earlier games; the most
“like” player you have to Marcus is Fin Smith at 10.
Why pick a more pragmatic player Ford as a backup if
that’s the sort of player you’re going to have lead
your attack?
Talent wise, we are right up there to an extent, and bits of it
are gelling. The starting pack is brilliant (and there are bits
missing without Chessum, T Curry, and Willis). Marcus has
blossomed into the best attacking 10 in international rugby. The
outside backs are excellent. That’s enough to get you part
of the way there, but you need to cultivate a style and find
40-50 players that slot into it. This is what France, the Boks,
and the All Blacks (and to a lesser extent, Ireland) are now
starting to do; find those players for the next 5-6 years. I
don't see us doing that.
For me, it isn’t the top two inches on the day, although
that is part of it. It’s all coaching, and thats both how
we play and creating the squad to play that way. It is what the
players are being asked to do, and it just isn’t coherent.
I would love to see what an O’Gara or a Scott Robinson
(the latter won’t happen) would do with this group. We
may not get the chance for a while.
#Post#: 130376--------------------------------------------------
Re: England v South Africa 16/11
DIR By: T-Bone
Date: November 17, 2024, 6:49 am
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Our starting pack really isn't brilliant. The front row is very
average. Second row is decent. Back row has an 8 who should
probably be at 7 and 6 who is a great raw talent but not fit
enough to be effective for a whole game.
All this talk of being within a point of the world cup final. We
had such an easy route that everyone thought we'd make the
semis. Yes, it was close, but we lost the first hard game.
Completely agree with the comments about some selections making
little sense. Are we going for a power game or more varied? If
power, then our accuracy and discipline are woefully inadequate
#Post#: 130377--------------------------------------------------
Re: England v South Africa 16/11
DIR By: Fursty
Date: November 17, 2024, 7:07 am
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Our 2nd row wasn’t even decent yesterday, Itoje got smashed in
contact repeatedly and gave away a number of silly pens. Once
Chessum is back I think him and Martin should be our starting
2nd row.
Also I really don’t get CCS - huge athleticism, but tactically
very naive and not fit enough.
#Post#: 130380--------------------------------------------------
Re: England v South Africa 16/11
DIR By: KentQuin
Date: November 17, 2024, 8:08 am
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Our coaching team are shambolic. It's been two years and we've
no clear identity, defensive structure or patterns of play. It's
a complete mess.
I'm struggling to think of a single player who looks better for
England then they do for their club.
Our players are being badly let down by a coaching team who
simply aren't up to it.
#Post#: 130381--------------------------------------------------
Re: England v South Africa 16/11
DIR By: Quinky
Date: November 17, 2024, 8:09 am
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--- Quote from: T-Bone link ---
>
> All this talk of being within a point of the world cup final.
We had such an easy route that everyone thought we'd make the
semis. Yes, it was close, but we lost the first hard game.
>
--- End Quote ---
Exactly. And a loss by one point is still a loss.
#Post#: 130383--------------------------------------------------
Re: England v South Africa 16/11
DIR By: The Kid
Date: November 17, 2024, 8:15 am
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CCS is very very young, and will get there with time.
Pieter-Steph Du Toit is the best of the best and we saw where
CCS was against that standard yesterday. He’s got all the raw
materials and has time on his side; there’s no reason why he
can’t be England’s PSDT for the next 8 years. I thought Chandler
had a reasonable game yesterday, especially at the lineout which
is something he’s only really started to master recently by his
own admission.
Weirdly, he and Baxter are probably two of the only three good
examples of this regime picking and backing young players before
they are ready. It’ll pay dividends in time. The boks front row
are the best of the best and Fin matched them yesterday. Those
two and Marcus are part of who the team should be building
around (others include Theo Dan, Martin, Earl, Feyi-Waboso - who
is the other example, and Furbank) while finding depth pieces to
replace Itoje, George, Cole, Slade in the next 18 months.
#Post#: 130386--------------------------------------------------
Re: England v South Africa 16/11
DIR By: The Kid
Date: November 17, 2024, 8:37 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: T-Bone link ---
>
>
> All this talk of being within a point of the world cup final.
We had such an easy route that everyone thought we'd make the
semis. Yes, it was close, but we lost the first hard game.
>
>
--- End Quote ---
I would argue that playing Argentina (who are no mugs, by the
way) with 14 men for more than an hour, and absolutely drilling
them 27-10, constituted a "hard" game en route to the world cup
semi.
We led the boks for 78 minutes, and had them bang to rights
until minute 65. That match is the one narrow loss where a
Borthwick team can credibly hold its hands up and say it did
100% of absolutely everything, bar the scrum (against the best
scrum team of *all time*, and even then it only broke with 15
mins left) pretty well as they drew it up. They came up just a
tiny bit short, as did three other good teams, against the
eventual world champions.
The losses in the last few weeks are not the same as that.
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