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#Post#: 130253--------------------------------------------------
Re: Squad Future
DIR By: Brown Bottle
Date: November 14, 2024, 3:19 pm
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--- Quote from: FishQuin link ---
>
> ...
>
> (And as I write “it’s only November” I think, isn’t there some
sort of rule that says premiership clubs can’t approach players
until January? Or did I dream that?)
>
--- End Quote ---
Yes I'm sure you're right but there's no rule against players
contacting clubs, AFAIK.
#Post#: 130256--------------------------------------------------
Re: Squad Future
DIR By: Yareet
Date: November 14, 2024, 4:45 pm
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--- Quote from: FishQuin link ---
>
> Oh, I completely agree, it’s not ideal. I would love to still
have the likes of Collier and Marchant turning out for Quins. My
comment was purely intended to highlight that the Quins academy
has done a pretty decent job of producing talent in recent
history.
>
> Right now, it’s a little concerning to see all the rumours of
players leaving. But it’s only November. There’s a lot to still
happen. Let’s see where we end up.
>
> (And as I write “it’s only November” I think, isn’t there some
sort of rule that says premiership clubs can’t approach players
until January? Or did I dream that?)
>
--- End Quote ---
Rule has been changed, I believe so it’s now any time in the
final season of a contract.
#Post#: 130259--------------------------------------------------
Re: Squad Future
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: November 14, 2024, 5:57 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Yareet link ---
>
> For whatever reason, it seems that Quins have struggled
historically to either develop players in certain positions (9
and 15 being the obvious examples)
>
--- End Quote ---
Obvious?
England's most capped fullback, close to 400 appearances at club
level, top 10 for tries scored in the premiership...
As for the difference with 2012, it's pretty obvious:
Harlequins: Brown; Williams, Lowe, Turner-Hall, Monye; Evans,
Care; Marler, Gray, Johnston, Kohn, Robson, Fa'asavalu, Robshaw,
Easter.
Replacements: Buchanan, Lambert, Collier, Vallejos, Guest,
Dickson, Clegg, Hopper.
That squad had a lot of players a mile away from international
selection and a couple about to pick up a handful of caps. JTH
was capped that summer then binned by England. Gray got nowhere
near for years. Kohn got a comedy Wales call at the end of his
career. Robson was never capped iirc, Robshaw and Marler had
only just started playing for England regularly. I think only
Vallejos on the bench had any caps.
Brown, Care, Easter, NEv, Monye were the big names there but
there were a lot of players who wouldn't be commanding big wages
or being targets for other sides. The quality in the squad now
is miles ahead of 2012; we have JEv instead of Clegg, Porter
instead of Dickson, about twenty backs better than Hopper, and
guys like Chisholm, CCS, Lawday as upgrades over Guest. Our
first two choices at loosehead are England internationals, one a
Lion, and we have Welsh internationals who warm the bench or
can't even make the squad
It's a completely different era. Much more quality throughout
the squad and plenty of players who would command big money in
places like France because of their sustained impact in big
games.
When quins finally started developing England internationals, we
suffered badly from the drop off when they were called up or
injured. Now the squad is far less lopsided, but it does mean
some very good players aren't able to hold down a starting spot
or are clearly worth huge money on the open market
#Post#: 130260--------------------------------------------------
Re: Squad Future
DIR By: poorfour
Date: November 15, 2024, 1:21 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Yareet link ---
>
> Nothing broader than an outsider's counter perspective that
perhaps some on this board have put too much faith put in the
ability to replace with academy talent.
>
> For whatever reason, it seems that Quins have struggled
historically to either develop players in certain positions (9
and 15 being the obvious examples) or to hold on to them (3).
The current squad seems very reliant on imports.
>
> Every club loses academy products. I'd love to still have
Ashman and Sam James to strengthen the Sale all-academy 23!
>
--- End Quote ---
The art of managing a player pipeline is to have a replacement
ready at the right time. Care and Brown’s remarkable longevity
means they haven’t needed to develop replacements - though there
have been some candidates. Sam Stuart and Ross Chisholm both had
the potential, but both suffered bad knee injuries that stopped
them reaching the level that was needed.
Instead, Quins have brought in Porter and Green, who have
stepped into the roles seamlessly, and there are other options
coming through in both roles. Friday looks very promising, and
Murley, Anderson and Slevin are all options at fullback.
What has impressed me recently is how good Quins have been at
replacing great players just when it was needed, mostly with
academy players or players getting their first pro contract at
Quins
#Post#: 130278--------------------------------------------------
Re: Squad Future
DIR By: thatchapcarnell
Date: November 15, 2024, 5:42 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: poorfour link ---
>
> Fair enough. Being a bit provocative, but from the club's
perspective I think that they want a balance between
internationals and players who are just below international
level. We've had a good production line of players who fit that
bill.
>
--- End Quote ---
This highlights a real conundrum.
Player A comes through the Quins academy, becomes a first team
regular and stakes a claim to play for England. Because the RFU
then pay them additional money and stop them moving overseas
they are likely to stay at Quins but only be available for fewer
games due to international call-ups. Other Prem teams won't take
them because they can't be marquee players.
Player B comes through the Quins academy, becomes a first team
regular but is just below international level or doesn't get
picked by perverse management decisions. They play week in week
out for Quins but don't get additional RFU central funding. Big
French team see them and can offer significantly more money.
Quins lose their player at the end of contract after 2-4 years
of excellent service.
The new central contracts will help us (and other Prem teams)
keep a select few players but for those not on guaranteed money,
the allure of the Euro may prove too strong in a limited career.
Interestingly, both models have seen success - Sarries won the
league and European Cup with a squad heaving with internationals
(albeit by pushing the envelope on salary cap payments at least
in places) meanwhile Exeter did the double with a squad of
almost no English internationals. Quins have fallen between the
two of late.
#Post#: 130290--------------------------------------------------
Re: Squad Future
DIR By: poorfour
Date: November 15, 2024, 7:22 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Good point. I'd forgotten how pervasive the French influence is
becoming; it's now no longer about whether we can compete with
them in the Champions Cup, but whether we can hold a squad
together in the face of their dosh.
This season is the mid point of the RWC cycle and probably the
point at which it's most enticing for players who aren't on the
England radar to jump ship, too.
#Post#: 130293--------------------------------------------------
Re: Squad Future
DIR By: Yareet
Date: November 15, 2024, 8:27 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: thatchapcarnell link ---
>
> This highlights a real conundrum.
>
> Player A comes through the Quins academy, becomes a first team
regular and stakes a claim to play for England. Because the RFU
then pay them additional money and stop them moving overseas
they are likely to stay at Quins but only be available for fewer
games due to international call-ups. Other Prem teams won't take
them because they can't be marquee players.
>
> Player B comes through the Quins academy, becomes a first team
regular but is just below international level or doesn't get
picked by perverse management decisions. They play week in week
out for Quins but don't get additional RFU central funding. Big
French team see them and can offer significantly more money.
Quins lose their player at the end of contract after 2-4 years
of excellent service.
>
> The new central contracts will help us (and other Prem teams)
keep a select few players but for those not on guaranteed money,
the allure of the Euro may prove too strong in a limited career.
>
> Interestingly, both models have seen success - Sarries won the
league and European Cup with a squad heaving with internationals
(albeit by pushing the envelope on salary cap payments at least
in places) meanwhile Exeter did the double with a squad of
almost no English internationals. Quins have fallen between the
two of late.
>
--- End Quote ---
Isn't that the same for all Prem (/URC/Super Rugby) clubs? My
perception is that Quins are suffering more than most but I
can't work out why.
#Post#: 130299--------------------------------------------------
Re: Squad Future
DIR By: poorfour
Date: November 15, 2024, 9:05 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Yareet link ---
>
> Isn't that the same for all Prem (/URC/Super Rugby) clubs? My
perception is that Quins are suffering more than most but I
can't work out why.
>
--- End Quote ---
Depends on how you define "suffering". Clubs are going to lose
players they developed; always have, and always will. The
question is whether they're able to maintain the squad quality
over time.
Are Quins likely to lose some players they'd rather keep this
season? Yes.
Will it materially weaken the squad? That depends. For me, it
comes down to what the long term plan at 12 is. In the other
positions, we have good alternatives.
#Post#: 130310--------------------------------------------------
Re: Squad Future
DIR By: Yareet
Date: November 15, 2024, 11:25 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: poorfour link ---
>
> Depends on how you define "suffering". Clubs are going to lose
players they developed; always have, and always will. The
question is whether they're able to maintain the squad quality
over time.
>
> Are Quins likely to lose some players they'd rather keep this
season? Yes.
> Will it materially weaken the squad? That depends. For me, it
comes down to what the long term plan at 12 is. In the other
positions, we have good alternatives.
>
--- End Quote ---
By "suffering" I meant it's happening more than it used to and
more than for other clubs. It would seem as well as though the
conveyor belt isn't maintaining the squad - hence the need to
bring in imports. Which must be a more expensive way of
operating.
#Post#: 130313--------------------------------------------------
Re: Squad Future
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: November 15, 2024, 11:46 am
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Who exactly are we being compared with here?
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