DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
ComeAllWithin (Harlequins Rugby)
HTML https://comeallwithin.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: ComeAllWithin Board
*****************************************************
#Post#: 124361--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quins - In's and Out's
DIR By: Banstead Quin
Date: May 10, 2024, 3:17 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I really want to believe that, Jammy, but I think that the
European defeat will push them into bad behaviours again,
especially if they miss out on the Prem and their 4,000 fans get
disgruntled, and the plastics don't show up anymore.
#Post#: 124388--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quins - In's and Out's
DIR By: Quinky
Date: May 10, 2024, 6:20 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> They'll be spending up to the cap. They're one of the clubs
that doesn't care about burning money, despite their huge
losses. But they're at the limit of what they can offer given
some huge wages still on the books and no hope of discount
offers being accepted. They have some players who will command
big salary increases in the next round of contract discussions,
representing the core of the future Saracens team post
George/Itoje/Farrell/Vunipolae etc.
>
> Plus I suppose they would dearly love to keep hold of the guys
they picked up cheap from Irish, same as us.
>
> As the players from the rotten era slowly retire or move
clubs, Saracens become more aligned with the rest of the league.
>
--- End Quote ---
Isn't Farrell heading off to France? Or did I imagine that?
#Post#: 124390--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quins - In's and Out's
DIR By: TeddingtonQuin
Date: May 10, 2024, 6:26 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
>
> As the players from the rotten era slowly retire or move
clubs, Saracens become more aligned with the rest of the league.
>
--- End Quote ---
Do we really know if they are now playing by the same rules as
everyone else? Do we know that the salary cap manager is
actually on the ball and has the resources, ability and
determination to enforce the rules? They have never apologised
to the rest of the teams, just said that 'mistakes were made'.
Of course mistakes were made, they got caught!
#Post#: 124392--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quins - In's and Out's
DIR By: poorfour
Date: May 10, 2024, 6:46 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: TeddingtonQuin link ---
>
> Do we really know if they are now playing by the same rules as
everyone else? Do we know that the salary cap manager is
actually on the ball and has the resources, ability and
determination to enforce the rules? They have never apologised
to the rest of the teams, just said that 'mistakes were made'.
Of course mistakes were made, they got caught!
>
--- End Quote ---
The salary cap manager has always been an experienced Big 4
accountant (PWC, from memory). The difference since Saracens'
relegation is that he or she has vastly improved access to club
and player finances. The one question mark is whether there is a
carve out for pre-relegation deals, and Sarries clearly have
players on their books who are benefitting from previous
indiscretions. Once you've been given a house, you own a house
you didn't have before.
It will be interesting to see if they can maintain their level
of performance once the tainted generation have all moved on. My
guess would be that it will look quite a bit like this season.
The 1st XV will be very competitive because McCall is a very
good coach, but they won't have the insane strength in depth
they had during their naughty period.
#Post#: 124394--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quins - In's and Out's
DIR By: Bucksquin
Date: May 10, 2024, 6:55 am
---------------------------------------------------------
"The one question mark is whether there is a carve-out for
pre-relegation deals, and Sarries clearly have players on their
books who are benefitting from previous indiscretions. Once
you've been given a house, you own a house you didn't have
before." This seems to me to be a very important point. I don't
think we know the effect of that because we don't have details
of all the benefits and bungs that were paid when. Either way, I
guess it would explain Sarries continuing to have a
higher-than-might-be-expected depth of international quality
versus the non-cheating sides, for a few years after the
cheating period, as it runs itself off.
#Post#: 124395--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quins - In's and Out's
DIR By: Yareet
Date: May 10, 2024, 6:59 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: poorfour link ---
>
> The salary cap manager has always been an experienced Big 4
accountant (PWC, from memory). The difference since Saracens'
relegation is that he or she has vastly improved access to club
and player finances. The one question mark is whether there is a
carve out for pre-relegation deals, and Sarries clearly have
players on their books who are benefitting from previous
indiscretions. Once you've been given a house, you own a house
you didn't have before.
>
> It will be interesting to see if they can maintain their level
of performance once the tainted generation have all moved on. My
guess would be that it will look quite a bit like this season.
The 1st XV will be very competitive because McCall is a very
good coach, but they won't have the insane strength in depth
they had during their naughty period.
>
--- End Quote ---
Sorry but I'm not sure that's true. The Salary Cap Manager for
Prem Rugby has always been Andrew Rogers. He's now Salary Cap
Director (one of the recommendations of the Dyson report) and
Head of Governance. To the best of my knowledge, he's never
worked at PWC as he's always been a sports administrator.
#Post#: 124398--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quins - In's and Out's
DIR By: TomBuckQuin
Date: May 10, 2024, 7:21 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: TeddingtonQuin link ---
>
> Do we really know if they are now playing by the same rules as
everyone else? Do we know that the salary cap manager is
actually on the ball and has the resources, ability and
determination to enforce the rules? They have never apologised
to the rest of the teams, just said that 'mistakes were made'.
Of course mistakes were made, they got caught!
>
--- End Quote ---
Two questions in response to this:
1. What would Prem Rugby have to do to reassure you that proper
regulation is now in place?
2. What's in it for Prem Rugby to allow another salary cap
scandal to come out of the woodwork?
I'm definitely FAR from being a Sarries apologist and I take
your point that Sarries have never seemed repentant etc, etc...
but that's separate from salary cap regulation. Unless there's
evidence to the contrary, surely we have to trust that it is in
Prem Rugby's best interests to have the checks and balances in
place now? They don't want another big scandal in the papers - a
second one would be hugely damaging to the brand.
I really DO understand the frustration that there has never been
full justice served for those years of cheating - to call it
what it was. Realistically, though, the only way something like
that kind of retribution comes about might be when Mark McCall
moves on and the next DoR comes in and wipes the slate clean,
handing back the replica trophies and admitting they weren't
fairly won. Then again, still unlikely - and personally, I'm
over it.
What I don't understand is why many seem to conflate Sarries'
wrongdoing with the regulation side of things and create this
ongoing conspiracy that they are still going to be able to dodge
the cap - I don't think there's any evidence whatsoever that
Prem Rugby is corrupt like that. If I'm being naive, prove me
wrong.
#Post#: 124400--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quins - In's and Out's
DIR By: Bucksquin
Date: May 10, 2024, 7:27 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Surely it's not necessary to argue that there is an ongoing
conspiracy involving Saracens and the rugby authorities to
simply wonder about the extent to which Sarries recent successes
(post the "cheating years") have not been significantly
influenced by the spillover effect (the run-off) of the
payments, bungs and benefits that were given to leading players
during the cheating years. At its simplest, some of those
players would not have been there but for those cheating
payments.
#Post#: 124407--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quins - In's and Out's
DIR By: TomBuckQuin
Date: May 10, 2024, 7:49 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Bucksquin link ---
>
> Surely it's not necessary to argue that there is an ongoing
conspiracy involving Saracens and the rugby authorities to
simply wonder about the extent to which Sarries recent successes
(post the "cheating years") have not been significantly
influenced by the spillover effect (the run-off) of the
payments, bungs and benefits that were given to leading players
during the cheating years. At its simplest, some of those
players would not have been there but for those cheating
payments.
>
--- End Quote ---
That's a different point to the one Teddington was making - and
for what it's worth, I agree that this spillover effect has
definitely allowed Sarries to continue their dominance without
technically breaking the cap since their return to the Prem...
What the regulators could possibly do about that I have no idea,
but as others have mentioned above, I doubt we'll see the same
Sarries once the old guard have all moved on - and we're already
seeing the beginnings of that.
My point, really, was that I can't see why Prem Rugby would ever
let a side fiddle the books again in the future.
#Post#: 124412--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quins - In's and Out's
DIR By: Quinky
Date: May 10, 2024, 8:05 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: TomBuckQuin link ---
>
>
> What I don't understand is why many seem to conflate Sarries'
wrongdoing with the regulation side of things and create this
ongoing conspiracy that they are still going to be able to dodge
the cap
>
--- End Quote ---
I think it's just a question of trust, or rather a lack
thereof.
*****************************************************
Page 8 of 11
DIR Previous Page
DIR Next Page