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#Post#: 121017--------------------------------------------------
Re: By how many points will France beat England on Sat. 16th
March ?
DIR By: RodneyRegis
Date: March 14, 2024, 1:22 pm
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There is more to wing play than scoring tries, absolutely.
Obviously :)
However, it is a pretty good place to start. You can score
shedloads of tries and still not be quite up to test standard
because of other shortcomings - but you can't really be a test
winger if you don't score.
For me it's a case of looking at the list of try scorers. Then
consider pace, and see if there are any flaws which will be
exploited at international level, such as defence. I feel a lot
of people put too much emphasis on size, there have been many
world class wingers who have been small. But if that's your bag
then fine.
After that, look at who's left over and THEN consider thinks
like kicking ability, which really ought to be secondary bonus
qualities.
Now, there's clearly another set of criteria being used to come
up with selections like Daly, Tom Roebuck, Joe Cokanasiga, or
even IFW for that matter. I'm not really sure what they are.
Presumably, has he been given hundreds of caps playing out of
position and failed to put in a decent performance for the last
3 or 4 years, does he turn slower than an oil tanker, can he
enthusiastically chase after a box kick even if it was too long,
and is he not really English.
#Post#: 121020--------------------------------------------------
Re: By how many points will France beat England on Sat. 16th
March ?
DIR By: Saintquin
Date: March 14, 2024, 2:09 pm
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Hopefully roughly the same amount as Ireland did! [emoji6]
#Post#: 121022--------------------------------------------------
Re: By how many points will France beat England on Sat. 16th
March ?
DIR By: T-Bone
Date: March 14, 2024, 3:19 pm
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There's actually not much more to a winger than scoring tries.
Scoring tries is their raison d'être. Defending obviously also
quite important. Kick chase has become important but shouldn't
really be considered that high on the list of required
attributes.
Of course other players can score, but what exactly is a winger
on the pitch for it not to score? Who in their right mind picks
a winger who isn't very good at scoring tries?
Perhaps that's where England have been going wrong. I don't like
Lowe, but he does tend to get points for Ireland. Jack Nowell
hitting rucks, may running sideways and chasing kicks, Daly
kicking a long way but not very accurately, is all very nice,
but not actually od much use
#Post#: 121026--------------------------------------------------
Re: By how many points will France beat England on Sat. 16th
March ?
DIR By: MaidstoneQuin
Date: March 14, 2024, 4:01 pm
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7 of Englands top try scorers were wingers. When you look at
them individually, most averaged almost 1 in 2 games. When was
the last time we had any back, yet alone wing have that sort of
potency? Selecting wingers who are “a bit good at this, handy at
that” but not out and out try scoring machines, has been in my
view one thing that’s led to the decline of England
#Post#: 121032--------------------------------------------------
Re: By how many points will France beat England on Sat. 16th
March ?
DIR By: Jimmy G
Date: March 14, 2024, 4:57 pm
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Penaud, world class winger, pretty sure we can agree on that. 52
games for France, 36 tries... No tries against Wales last week
but still was a highlight player. Great wingers will make yards,
etc & score tries.
#Post#: 121055--------------------------------------------------
Re: By how many points will France beat England on Sat. 16th
March ?
DIR By: deadlyfrom5yardsout
Date: March 15, 2024, 4:25 am
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Is that Jammy Git's brother?
#Post#: 121059--------------------------------------------------
Re: By how many points will France beat England on Sat. 16th
March ?
DIR By: Yareet
Date: March 15, 2024, 4:50 am
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Again I'm going to disagree.
Of those top try scorers, those who have scored more than a try
every other game are all pre-2007. If you go back to the 5
nations, the record points (not try) scorers for England would
be the full backs. Because they kicked the goals. Now hardly any
15s kick regularly. The game changes and so do players' roles.
The game is more complex now than ever and the expected
skillsets of pro players are (to my mind) far broader than we
probably appreciate. The obvious recent changes would be that
10s now need to tackle while props do more than just scrum, maul
and lineout. As fans though, I think we sometimes get a little
too hung up on the specifics of what an individual player should
do and ignore what the team needs to achieve as a whole.
That Wibble video claimed that England recover 30% of their own
kicks. They have clearly built a game plan which uses this
tactic. So if a player (let's all him Penry Parundell) refuses
to chase the kick, he's not playing to the team's tactics. He
could score a hattrick but if he leaves 2 more potential tries
on the pitch or worse yet gifts the oppo the space to score 4,
he's a liability.
The highlight reel will show the hattrick but I'm not sure how
many of us as laypeople will notice what he's not doing.
#Post#: 121065--------------------------------------------------
Re: By how many points will France beat England on Sat. 16th
March ?
DIR By: poorfour
Date: March 15, 2024, 5:47 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Yareet link ---
>
>
> That Wibble video claimed that England recover 30% of their
own kicks. They have clearly built a game plan which uses this
tactic. So if a player (let's all him Penry Parundell) refuses
to chase the kick, he's not playing to the team's tactics. He
could score a hattrick but if he leaves 2 more potential tries
on the pitch or worse yet gifts the oppo the space to score 4,
he's a liability.
>
>
--- End Quote ---
He's not a mild-mannered janitor, by any chance?
#Post#: 121067--------------------------------------------------
Re: By how many points will France beat England on Sat. 16th
March ?
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: March 15, 2024, 6:23 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Yareet link ---
>
> Again I'm going to disagree.
>
> Of those top try scorers, those who have scored more than a
try every other game are all pre-2007. If you go back to the 5
nations, the record points (not try) scorers for England would
be the full backs. Because they kicked the goals. Now hardly any
15s kick regularly. The game changes and so do players' roles.
>
> The game is more complex now than ever and the expected
skillsets of pro players are (to my mind) far broader than we
probably appreciate. The obvious recent changes would be that
10s now need to tackle while props do more than just scrum, maul
and lineout. As fans though, I think we sometimes get a little
too hung up on the specifics of what an individual player should
do and ignore what the team needs to achieve as a whole.
>
> That Wibble video claimed that England recover 30% of their
own kicks. They have clearly built a game plan which uses this
tactic. So if a player (let's all him Penry Parundell) refuses
to chase the kick, he's not playing to the team's tactics. He
could score a hattrick but if he leaves 2 more potential tries
on the pitch or worse yet gifts the oppo the space to score 4,
he's a liability.
>
> The highlight reel will show the hattrick but I'm not sure how
many of us as laypeople will notice what he's not doing.
>
--- End Quote ---
The thing is, other nations exist. We can see what is successful
in international rugby. Even for those teams similarly happy to
boot the ball away. The teams who were best at the kick and
pressure tactic always had pace in the back 3. Aerial ability
obviously matters but pace matters just as much (there's a
chase...) and the ultimate aim of the tactic is to win
possession in tactically advantageous areas.
Areas where you want dangerous wingers to get the ball so they
can score tries.
I am wracking my brains trying to think of a genuinely
successful team that willingly put a guy with no pace or real
attacking threat on the wing for this sort of tactic (or any
tactic). Happy to be proven wrong, I'm just really struggling to
see it.
Daly is also not particularly brilliant in the air, he's made
some very high profile mistakes in that area before. But he
isn't the worst.
#Post#: 121069--------------------------------------------------
Re: By how many points will France beat England on Sat. 16th
March ?
DIR By: Yareet
Date: March 15, 2024, 6:48 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> The thing is, other nations exist. We can see what is
successful in international rugby. Even for those teams
similarly happy to boot the ball away. The teams who were best
at the kick and pressure tactic always had pace in the back 3.
Aerial ability obviously matters but pace matters just as much
(there's a chase...) and the ultimate aim of the tactic is to
win possession in tactically advantageous areas.
>
> Areas where you want dangerous wingers to get the ball so they
can score tries.
>
> I am wracking my brains trying to think of a genuinely
successful team that willingly put a guy with no pace or real
attacking threat on the wing for this sort of tactic (or any
tactic). Happy to be proven wrong, I'm just really struggling to
see it.
>
> Daly is also not particularly brilliant in the air, he's made
some very high profile mistakes in that area before. But he
isn't the worst.
>
--- End Quote ---
I've never said that winger don't need pace. I've said that
their roles is not just scoring tries.
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