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#Post#: 115529--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dommers , and Danny Wilson article in todays Telegraph
DIR By: T-Bone
Date: November 17, 2023, 5:44 am
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I have no faith that borthwick will look to bring in a more
exciting style, so I don't really see any place for dombrandt
sadly. Borthwick will want someone to crash it up into traffic
so we can make a few yards and then kick the ball away
#Post#: 115535--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dommers , and Danny Wilson article in todays Telegraph
DIR By: Marsile
Date: November 17, 2023, 6:09 am
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--- Quote from: T-Bone link ---
> Borthwick will want someone to crash it up into traffic
>
--- End Quote ---
At international level, a No.8 needs to be able to carry the
ball up effectively and link play during phase play. AD just
didn't do that for England. For a big man, he just doesn't bring
as much power to the collision gainline as he should do. Players
with far less heft than him bend the line more and that's just
unforgivable really. Good club level player though.
#Post#: 115537--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dommers , and Danny Wilson article in todays Telegraph
DIR By: FatQuin
Date: November 17, 2023, 6:37 am
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BV with loads more heft does nothing but still gets picked.
#Post#: 115539--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dommers , and Danny Wilson article in todays Telegraph
DIR By: T-Bone
Date: November 17, 2023, 6:40 am
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BV has been a busted flush for years at international level.
Don't understand how he still gets in
Happy for dombrandt tom miss out to a more traditional "bosh" 8,
but BV has not been a better direct option for some time
#Post#: 115543--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dommers , and Danny Wilson article in todays Telegraph
DIR By: Marsile
Date: November 17, 2023, 6:44 am
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--- Quote from: FatQuin link ---
>
> BV with loads more heft does nothing but still gets picked.
>
--- End Quote ---
Vunipola's form and shortcomings are not related to whether
Dombrandt is any good. You can have opinion on one without it
impacting on other opinions.
BV was terrible in the RWC but, much like AD, BV plays a
different (more effective) way for his club than he does for
England. As many players seem to do.
#Post#: 115547--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dommers , and Danny Wilson article in todays Telegraph
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: November 17, 2023, 7:27 am
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Dombrandt can do the heavy carrying - he even did it in the 6N.
His problems were that he very occasionally doesn't give it
everything in the carry because he's used to being physically
dominant and gets melted at international level, which colours
perception, he had a bad case of the dropsies for a couple of
matches when trying to take everything on the gain line at
100mph, and some very poor tackling.
He has the physicality to succeed, he's been overthinking it for
England. He's been battering defences for Quins so far this
season without losing the more skill based side of his game so
it will be interesting to see if he can keep it up, and whether
he'll get another England shot. For now, their loss is Quins'
gain.
#Post#: 115549--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dommers , and Danny Wilson article in todays Telegraph
DIR By: poorfour
Date: November 17, 2023, 7:41 am
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--- Quote from: Marsile link ---
>
>
>
> At international level, a No.8 needs to be able to carry the
ball up effectively and link play during phase play. AD just
didn't do that for England. For a big man, he just doesn't bring
as much power to the collision gainline as he should do. Players
with far less heft than him bend the line more and that's just
unforgivable really. Good club level player though.
>
--- End Quote ---
That's a popular opinion, but I don't think the facts bear it
out. if you look at their relative performances in the 6N,
Dombrandt was consistently making better yards than Earl from
similar positions. It was most visible with kick off returns.
What Dombrandt wasn't doing well was running lines that didn't
rely on power alone. He was picking the right lines, but his
timing was off and the passes weren't sticking. That changed in
the Wales game, but by then Borthwick had already decided he was
going with Billy.
I'd agree that a Number 8 needs to carry and link play - but I'd
disagree that there's only one way to do it. There are also two
main kinds of carry that need to cover.
Most carries aren't aiming for a line break; they're aiming to
tie in defenders and deliver quick ball, but not to break the
line. Making some yards is desirable, but it's usually more
important to lay the ball back cleanly. It's possible to
overcook this kind of carry - Haskell in his early years would
regularly make half breaks but get isolated and turned over when
what the team needed was recycled ball. Dombrandt, I think,
learned his craft from Robshaw, whose close carrying was
frequently criticised for not making yards - but very
consistently tied up a couple of defenders and presented clean
ball that gave options for the next phase.
The second type is trying to get a line break. We've been used
to having power carriers like Billy who only know one way to
carry but are sufficiently powerful that the question they ask
is how to stop them. Dombrandt asks a defence different
questions, which are whether the defenders can pick his line and
whether they can cover that option while also covering the other
options.
Now that seems to be working, it's an option that's worth having
in the squad, because it's hard to defend. And it becomes more
useful if (as seems likely given Curry's injury) the back row
could also include Earl and Martin as more direct carrying
options.
#Post#: 115552--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dommers , and Danny Wilson article in todays Telegraph
DIR By: Marsile
Date: November 17, 2023, 8:16 am
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Earl picks lines between defenders, he's not a player to carry
the ball up into contact as a primary option but if he has to
then he does it well for a player barely over 100kgs. However,
Earl has genuine power and pace which is what marks him out.
Earl also played the highest level of test rugby you can play in
the RWC SF out of position and still didn't look out of sorts.
Not many can do that.
Dombrandt picks good lines but he doesn't have the speed or the
power to really trouble top international defences. He still
looks a bit heavy to me (not out of shape though) but I
appreciate clearly that he's naturally a big man.
#Post#: 115553--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dommers , and Danny Wilson article in todays Telegraph
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: November 17, 2023, 8:21 am
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Well that's just wrong. Dombrandt is rapid and has already shown
he has the power, he just needs to be far more consistent with
it. He's not Earl pace (but then Earl is significantly better at
7 than 8, as we saw at the world cup) or Sam Simmonds, but he's
up there with Mercer and considerably ahead of all the other
options like Tom Willis.
#Post#: 115554--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dommers , and Danny Wilson article in todays Telegraph
DIR By: FatQuin
Date: November 17, 2023, 8:22 am
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It has an impact if you know that, no matter what you do or how
you perform, that cart horse will still take your shirt - even
though it’s years since they were any good.
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