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#Post#: 114803--------------------------------------------------
Re: World Champions
DIR By: poorfour
Date: October 30, 2023, 10:09 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Yareet link ---
>
> Appreciate the sentiment but I believe that would remove the
aims of the bunker - i.e. to remove the need to stop the game
while the ref watches a load of video and to lessen the
(possible) impact of a partisan crown on the ref's decision.
>
--- End Quote ---
The stated aim of the bunker was to reduce the amount of time
the ref spends reviewing video (which often involves delays
asking for and finding different angles) and the pressure to
make a snap decision under pressure to get the game moving
again. But what's happened is that we lose too much of the
understanding of how the decision's been reached.
What I'm proposing is that the ref (and crowd) get shown a
package with the relevant angles (both sides of the incident, if
available; full speed and slow mo; close and wide shots) and a
recommendation based on what the bunker team has seen, but
ultimately has the decision in their hands. It slows things down
a little, but the ref gets to review the best angles with a
little distance from the incident, the crowd gets to see and
hear the reasoning, and - most importantly for me - the ref
remains in control of the game. They don't have to stand by a
decision based on things they haven't personally seen.
#Post#: 114809--------------------------------------------------
Re: World Champions
DIR By: Quinky
Date: October 30, 2023, 11:47 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> I'm suggesting it's incredibly rare for any player to
deliberately seek to cause serious injury and to make that
accusation in the absence of any proof is pretty gross
>
--- End Quote ---
Lots of rare things happen.
#Post#: 114810--------------------------------------------------
Re: World Champions
DIR By: Yareet
Date: October 31, 2023, 2:59 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: poorfour link ---
>
> The stated aim of the bunker was to reduce the amount of time
the ref spends reviewing video (which often involves delays
asking for and finding different angles) and the pressure to
make a snap decision under pressure to get the game moving
again. But what's happened is that we lose too much of the
understanding of how the decision's been reached.
>
> What I'm proposing is that the ref (and crowd) get shown a
package with the relevant angles (both sides of the incident, if
available; full speed and slow mo; close and wide shots) and a
recommendation based on what the bunker team has seen, but
ultimately has the decision in their hands. It slows things down
a little, but the ref gets to review the best angles with a
little distance from the incident, the crowd gets to see and
hear the reasoning, and - most importantly for me - the ref
remains in control of the game. They don't have to stand by a
decision based on things they haven't personally seen.
>
--- End Quote ---
In an ideal world, that’s perfect but I can easily foresee a
situation where the ref can’t quite see what the TMO has
explained.
Not that the ref disagrees but watching the playback on a big
screen from 30m away just not being as clear as scrutinising a
laptop.
So what does the ref do? Accept the TMO’s advice (which is where
we are now) or ask to see the footage again (which is what we
are trying to avoid)?
And it’s those close calls which will always generate the most
controversy/disagreement.
It is a very valid aim that the ref is the sole arbiter of fact.
But we already allow some responsibility to be abdicated to
other qualified personnel whether that’s as simple as an AR
ruling that the player was in touch or a TMO decreeing whether a
player was short of the tryline.
#Post#: 114874--------------------------------------------------
Re: World Champions
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: November 1, 2023, 6:55 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Quinky link ---
>
> Lots of rare things happen.
>
--- End Quote ---
Not very often, which is why they're rare. And if someone is
going to make an accusation of appalling behaviour, it's best if
there's any evidence that it was deliberate.
Otherwise people could claim that Kolisi was trying to kill
someone with a flying headbutt. It's just hyper partisan
nonsense.
#Post#: 114890--------------------------------------------------
Re: World Champions
DIR By: Quinky
Date: November 1, 2023, 2:45 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> Not very often, which is why they're rare. And if someone is
going to make an accusation of appalling behaviour, it's best if
there's any evidence that it was deliberate.
>
> Otherwise people could claim that Kolisi was trying to kill
someone with a flying headbutt. It's just hyper partisan
nonsense.
>
--- End Quote ---
Except Kolisi wasn't flying.
I heard a kiwi friend say talk about the tactic of taking out a
key player. Of course it can't be proven hence these things are
rarely followed up, and become rare incidents. But who knows,
maybe some form of admission will appear in a biography one day.
Besides, it's all academic now.
#Post#: 114904--------------------------------------------------
Re: World Champions
DIR By: deadlyfrom5yardsout
Date: November 2, 2023, 4:36 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I was often taken out by a sniper around 60 minutes.
#Post#: 114907--------------------------------------------------
Re: World Champions
DIR By: Muzza
Date: November 2, 2023, 4:57 am
---------------------------------------------------------
In the aftermath of this RWC final a couple of points are now
dominating the rugby chat.
Firstly, this is the second RWC Final in the last two years that
has had a Red Card. Ok I understand the reasoning why we have
red cards, but RWC/Tests are elite professional sport events and
for rugby to generate money you need a competitive sports
contest.
So, my first prediction: the SANZAAR red card experiment (not
the orange card idea) is coming to professional rugby soon. I
expect many on this board to disagree with this fundamental
change to rugby’s ethos. However, SH rugby, worldwide TV
audiences, Sports broadcasters, Sponsors, Marketing people and
even for the casual fans who paid huge money to attend big
sports events are a significant force world rugby is listening
to not so much the dedicated club rugby fan.
…. ps had this red card rule been applied in 2022 then the
English women would have won the RWC.
Secondly, Steve Hansen made these two comments about the TMO –
(1) the game is being refereed via re-plays & (2) the TMO is
picking up what the ref misses not what he got wrong. An
interesting comment, and it got me thinking “is rugby refereeing
heading towards having a perfect game in terms of decisions”.
So, my second prediction: If the game is going to be ref by
replays then within a decade the human TMO will be replaced by
ChatGPT AI with all data feeds being analysed and a decision
given within seconds. There will never be a forward pass or
knock-on or offside not picked up, and the tackling
interpretations will be 100% accurate etc.
If this happens, I will be taking a “Bring back Barnes” sign to
rugby games.
#Post#: 114908--------------------------------------------------
Re: World Champions
DIR By: Yareet
Date: November 2, 2023, 5:11 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Muzza link ---
>
> In the aftermath of this RWC final a couple of points are now
dominating the rugby chat.
>
> Firstly, this is the second RWC Final in the last two years
that has had a Red Card. Ok I understand the reasoning why we
have red cards, but RWC/Tests are elite professional sport
events and for rugby to generate money you need a competitive
sports contest.
>
> So, my first prediction: the SANZAAR red card experiment (not
the orange card idea) is coming to professional rugby soon. I
expect many on this board to disagree with this fundamental
change to rugby’s ethos. However, SH rugby, worldwide TV
audiences, Sports broadcasters, Sponsors, Marketing people and
even for the casual fans who paid huge money to attend big
sports events are a significant force world rugby is listening
to not so much the dedicated club rugby fan.
>
> …. ps had this red card rule been applied in 2022 then the
English women would have won the RWC.
>
> Secondly, Steve Hansen made these two comments about the TMO –
(1) the game is being refereed via re-plays & (2) the TMO is
picking up what the ref misses not what he got wrong. An
interesting comment, and it got me thinking “is rugby refereeing
heading towards having a perfect game in terms of decisions”.
>
> So, my second prediction: If the game is going to be ref by
replays then within a decade the human TMO will be replaced by
ChatGPT AI with all data feeds being analysed and a decision
given within seconds. There will never be a forward pass or
knock-on or offside not picked up, and the tackling
interpretations will be 100% accurate etc.
>
> If this happens, I will be taking a “Bring back Barnes” sign
to rugby games.
>
>
--- End Quote ---
The cumulative points difference over those two finals is 4. The
games couldn't have been much more competitive.
#Post#: 114910--------------------------------------------------
Re: World Champions
DIR By: poorfour
Date: November 2, 2023, 5:23 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Yareet link ---
>
> In an ideal world, that’s perfect but I can easily foresee a
situation where the ref can’t quite see what the TMO has
explained.
>
> Not that the ref disagrees but watching the playback on a big
screen from 30m away just not being as clear as scrutinising a
laptop.
>
> So what does the ref do? Accept the TMO’s advice (which is
where we are now) or ask to see the footage again (which is what
we are trying to avoid)?
>
> And it’s those close calls which will always generate the most
controversy/disagreement.
>
> It is a very valid aim that the ref is the sole arbiter of
fact. But we already allow some responsibility to be abdicated
to other qualified personnel whether that’s as simple as an AR
ruling that the player was in touch or a TMO decreeing whether a
player was short of the tryline.
>
--- End Quote ---
I agree - it's a trade off. But I think everyone benefits if we
can at least see the evidence that led to the decision, and if
that's the case it makes sense to put the final decision back to
the ref. I suspect the points of disagreement would be
relatively rare given the bunker have time to look for the
clearest evidence, and I think it helps for them to be
accountable to someone.
To Muzza's point about AI - I assume it's tongue in cheek, but
WR is way ahead of this. They used smart ball tech at the JRWC
this year and it was very effective. Refs got near real time
feedback - which picked up a lot of not straight lineouts, but
very few passes that fell inside the forward pass definition
being used (i.e. backwards component of motion relative to the
player, but not necessarily the ground, because physics).
#Post#: 114911--------------------------------------------------
Re: World Champions
DIR By: Mayor West
Date: November 2, 2023, 5:30 am
---------------------------------------------------------
How do you address the problem of sanctioning foul play without
punishing the player responsible. Would people accept giving a
red card but you can bring someone else on after 20 mins. Could
that lead to players targeting others knowing there will only be
a short term disadvantage.
Knock out games are always going to be highlighted because
of red cards as there is no second chance and you can’t have
different laws for different games. It’s a tricky one.
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