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       #Post#: 114745--------------------------------------------------
       Re: World Champions
   DIR By: T-Bone
       Date: October 29, 2023, 6:29 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       I hate this argument that you can't win international rugby by
       playing an ambitious style. Look at France. Yes, they lost the
       1/4 final by a point, but they've made a success of playing
       attractive rugby.
       England slightly limped over the line in 2003 but that team
       played some amazing rugby. Don't remember Robinson, lewsey,
       Cohen, greenwood z luger, catt, balshaw, etc just being used to
       kick and chase
       #Post#: 114746--------------------------------------------------
       Re: World Champions
   DIR By: Yareet
       Date: October 29, 2023, 6:47 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: T-Bone link ---
       >
       > I hate this argument that you can't win international rugby by
       playing an ambitious style. Look at France. Yes, they lost the
       1/4 final by a point, but they've made a success of playing
       attractive rugby.
       >
       > England slightly limped over the line in 2003 but that team
       played some amazing rugby. Don't remember Robinson, lewsey,
       Cohen, greenwood z luger, catt, balshaw, etc just being used to
       kick and chase
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       To reinforce your point, of England’s top 10 try scorers (3-way
       tie at 10), 5 are from that era: Cohen, Greenwood, Robinson,
       Lewsey, Luger.
       They’ve also got some of the highest tries per game stats at
       around 0.5-0.6 per game.
       The only modern players who come close are May (2nd and has 0.46
       tries per game) and Waston (8th, 0.41)
       Full disclosure, Ben Youngs is joint 10th but at only 0.16 tries
       per game.
       #Post#: 114747--------------------------------------------------
       Re: World Champions
   DIR By: DOK
       Date: October 29, 2023, 6:54 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Have to say I've been enjoying the ITV replays of previous RWC
       matches. And yes, I was a bit surprised when I saw England
       playing in 2003 matches how much they looked like Harlequins in
       throwing the ball around. They were everything the current
       England team wasn't because of the way they knew where to be and
       where everyone else was when attacking. (Except for Billy Whizz
       - no-one knew where he was or where he was going, he'd just pop
       up and start beating the defence for fun!).
       As for last nights match, the trouble is two great teams who
       each could win the game. Wet weather. Choice of pedestrian but
       safe rugby or risky but attractive rugby. Not a shock that
       entertainment went out the window. Pretty sure had that been at
       Twickers they'd have had the Mexican wave going well before the
       60 minutes.
       But to me that was great rugby. I really enjoyed watching two of
       the best teams on the planet in a wrestle to see who could break
       down the oother's excellent defence. The red card was a shame,
       but it was worthy of Farrell and had it been, no-one would be
       the least surprised at the outcome.
       #Post#: 114750--------------------------------------------------
       Re: World Champions
   DIR By: Rocker
       Date: October 29, 2023, 8:00 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       What's the betting Jones turns up in Japan in a few weeks/months
       ....
       Last night's match wasn't a classic, but that was a very intense
       high pressure game. The Boks back row were immense. PTSD smashed
       tackles all night. The NZers will have some sore bodies today!
       The red card was a surprise. I was sure they would bottle it,
       what with it being the NZ captain and the RWC final.... It was a
       clear red in today's environment. I thought they were lucky that
       Savea didn't get a red fur taking out Bongi at the 3 minute
       mark. I mean it was an obvious ploy to take out the Bok's only
       hooker....
       #Post#: 114755--------------------------------------------------
       Re: World Champions
   DIR By: JammyGit
       Date: October 29, 2023, 10:30 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       It was Frizell, not Savea, and it was absolutely not an obvious
       attempt to take him out. He was trying to roll a horizontal
       player off the ruck, slipped off and fell on the leg. Pretty
       grim to accuse him of deliberately injuring Mbonambi.
       #Post#: 114767--------------------------------------------------
       Re: World Champions
   DIR By: Quinky
       Date: October 29, 2023, 5:18 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
       >
       > It was Frizell, not Savea, and it was absolutely not an
       obvious attempt to take him out. He was trying to roll a
       horizontal player off the ruck, slipped off and fell on the leg.
       Pretty grim to accuse him of deliberately injuring Mbonambi.
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       Are you suggesting that the All Blacks wouldn't be so cynical?
       #Post#: 114769--------------------------------------------------
       Re: World Champions
   DIR By: Bod
       Date: October 29, 2023, 6:41 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: Rocker link ---
       >
       > What's the betting Jones turns up in Japan in a few
       weeks/months ....
       >
       > Last night's match wasn't a classic, but that was a very
       intense high pressure game. The Boks back row were immense. PTSD
       smashed tackles all night. The NZers will have some sore bodies
       today! The red card was a surprise. I was sure they would bottle
       it, what with it being the NZ captain and the RWC final.... It
       was a clear red in today's environment. I thought they were
       lucky that Savea didn't get a red fur taking out Bongi at the 3
       minute mark. I mean it was an obvious ploy to take out the Bok's
       only hooker....
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       Savea?
       #Post#: 114782--------------------------------------------------
       Re: World Champions
   DIR By: poorfour
       Date: October 30, 2023, 6:01 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: DOK link ---
       >
       > Have to say I've been enjoying the ITV replays of previous RWC
       matches. And yes, I was a bit surprised when I saw England
       playing in 2003 matches how much they looked like Harlequins in
       throwing the ball around. They were everything the current
       England team wasn't because of the way they knew where to be and
       where everyone else was when attacking. (Except for Billy Whizz
       - no-one knew where he was or where he was going, he'd just pop
       up and start beating the defence for fun!).
       >
       > As for last nights match, the trouble is two great teams who
       each could win the game. Wet weather. Choice of pedestrian but
       safe rugby or risky but attractive rugby. Not a shock that
       entertainment went out the window. Pretty sure had that been at
       Twickers they'd have had the Mexican wave going well before the
       60 minutes.
       >
       > But to me that was great rugby. I really enjoyed watching two
       of the best teams on the planet in a wrestle to see who could
       break down the oother's excellent defence. The red card was a
       shame, but it was worthy of Farrell and had it been, no-one
       would be the least surprised at the outcome.
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       The problem for that England side was always Plan B. When they
       could get front foot ball they would either score tries or win
       penalties that Wilko would kick, but if a team managed to get up
       in the midfield's face they were beatable - until in 2003 they
       had built enough options to be able to get around that (a lot of
       which was down to putting Catt in for Tindall to give a second
       playmaker and take the pressure off Wilkinson).
       The Cane red always looked like it should be a red, but the
       issue for me is that things that should also have been red
       earlier in the tournament were not treated as such. The game
       could have been very different had Etzebeth been sitting out a
       ban, for instance.
       Frizell on Mbonangi looked bad from the angle shown in the
       stadium, but from his arm positions it looked like he went for a
       fair clearout and slipped. I suspect that the reverse angle
       showed that and that's why it was only a yellow, but we didn't
       get to see it. Although at the time I did observe that he had
       been found "not English".
       One thing I would like WR to do is to amend the bunker process
       to put the ultimate decision back in the hands of the ref - the
       bunker should show a package of the relevant angles and make a
       recommendation as to the facts as they are seeing them and where
       that leads the process, but the ref should have the ultimate
       call. I think that would at least lead to consistency of
       decisions within the context of a game.
       #Post#: 114785--------------------------------------------------
       Re: World Champions
   DIR By: JammyGit
       Date: October 30, 2023, 6:51 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: Quinky link ---
       >
       > Are you suggesting that the All Blacks wouldn't be so cynical?
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       I'm suggesting it's incredibly rare for any player to
       deliberately seek to cause serious injury and to make that
       accusation in the absence of any proof is pretty gross
       #Post#: 114789--------------------------------------------------
       Re: World Champions
   DIR By: Yareet
       Date: October 30, 2023, 8:23 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: poorfour link ---
       >
       > the bunker should show a package of the relevant angles and
       make a recommendation as to the facts as they are seeing them
       and where that leads the process, but the ref should have the
       ultimate call. I think that would at least lead to consistency
       of decisions within the context of a game.
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       Appreciate the sentiment but I believe that would remove the
       aims of the bunker - i.e. to remove the need to stop the game
       while the ref watches a load of video and to lessen the
       (possible) impact of a partisan crown on the ref's decision.
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