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#Post#: 114436--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dan Cole...Genuine question!
DIR By: Camquin
Date: October 23, 2023, 2:56 am
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I am not sure that we could have chosen a different front row,
and that is the problem.
With 10, formerly 13, fully professional sides, or international
coach has one world-class tight head and one world-class loose
head. And the few back-up players he could consider are not good
enough to play against tier 1 sides.
Surely each Premiership club should have one English prop of
that quality.
Yet other countries, with fewer professional sides, are
producing more.
Some of whom are playing in the Premiership.
#Post#: 114440--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dan Cole...Genuine question!
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: October 23, 2023, 4:07 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Yareet link ---
>
> A lot of critics said we wouldn’t beat Argentina
> A lot of critics said we wouldn’t get out of our group
> A lot of critics said we wouldn’t beat Fiji
> A lot of critics said we wouldn’t get close to SA
>
> Even if we had won the whole thing, I fear a lot of critics
would’ve still complained we did it playing dull rugby.
>
> If at any point since Borthwick took over, somebody had said
we would have been unbeaten in the World Cup until the semi
final where we lose by 1 point to world’s number #1 team and
that we are only behind for the last 2 minutes, I’m not sure
many would’ve believed it.
>
> Yet still there are those who refuse to credit this coaching
ticket or this team for their achievements.
>
> It’s always about how badly the oppo played.
>
> Would the same XV have taken the field or played the same game
plan if the oppo were Ireland, France or NZ? I’m guessing not.
For me, Borthwick showed with the Fiji game v last night that he
will pick horses for courses and a style to match.
>
--- End Quote ---
And yet a huge number of people rightly pointed out before the
tournament that England had been gifted a semi final almost by
default thanks to the draw.
We played two good games of rugby. One against a dreadful
Argentina - this isn't to diminish England's performance, Ford
managed a 14 man side really well, but Argentina were utterly
incompetent - and then the weekend's hilariously negative vortex
of anti rugby that nearly worked but didn't. Outside of that, we
had nothing to cheer about. The Fiji game was bad, England were
very poor. The Samoa game was worse.
I'm not going to give the coaches credit for achieving what
would be the bare minimum for any England side under any coaches
given the draw and the Argentina meltdown. They went all in on
the anti rugby and it ended up costing them a final appearance.
England being incapable of recognising try scoring opportunities
is on the coaches.
Honestly, the way some people are behaving, it's as if we won
the world cup rather than stumble past the easiest group in
history, nearly fall flat on our own faces against a Fiji team
that had stopped playing smart rugby halfway through the
Australia game and had nearly lost to Georgia before actually
losing to Portugal, then dragged South Africa into an eye
bleeding awful arm wrestle before losing because selection and
tactical decisions came back to bite them.
We required extremely generous refereeing to beat both Fiji and
Samoa. We tried our hardest against SA, no question, but captain
fantastic costing England six points with his witless backchat
and his panicking in his own 22 plus the absurd anti-impact of
Billy Vunipola who everyone said was an appalling selection that
made a mess of the squad balance plus the refusal to recognise
Sinckler's years long decline... Well, it was hardly a shock
that we ended up losing the way we did. The only shock was that
South Africa handled us refusing to play in such a poor way, but
they were awful and won.
I am extremely pleased for people like Lawes, Marler, Curry,
Earl, Steward who all had fantastic games.
#Post#: 114449--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dan Cole...Genuine question!
DIR By: Banstead Quin
Date: October 23, 2023, 6:10 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Yep, sorry Yareet, have to agree with Jammy on this one. When
the draw was made (back in 2003, if you believe the Irish) in
2020 I immediately screamed out that that was at least a semi
(Mrs BQ got a bit distressed until she realised I was talking
about rugby!) and we hadn't fallen off of a cliff at that point.
There was a lot of scepticism going into it, me included and as
much as I loved Marseille in the quarters, we did start to show
that moments of inspiration weren't enough. Saturday showed that
if the whole team play to a game plan, then you have a good
chance of pulling off a surprise. It was Farrell's best game by
far and I actually started to see all of this so called
leadership that he's supposed to have. Sadly, he then crapped
his pants with the ref, clearly out of his comfort zone.
Knock out rugby is just about winning, not growing and they
couldn't find a way, which in itself is an issue. If the 6
Nations squad retires a few and leaves some in to help the next
generation then great and we can all get off Borthwick's back
but the key, for me, is the system. He needs to nail his colours
to the mast and pick based on that. If that excludes Quins
players, then so be it as I can get behind an England team that
can play to a system and deliver results based on that. I can
then get my 'thrill-seeker' rocks off at club level.
Eddie never understood how important the 6 Nations is to us as
fans, as he was only focussed on the WC, Borthwick say's he
get's that and will deliver there, so let's see what happens
next.
#Post#: 114451--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dan Cole...Genuine question!
DIR By: Quinky
Date: October 23, 2023, 6:29 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: poorfour link ---
>
> So which replacements would you have selected in their place?
>
> And how would you have coached them to get on the side of a
southern hemisphere ref who was clearly more comfortable with SH
scrummaging styles?
>
--- End Quote ---
For a start, pretty much anyone but Vunipola.
As for the scrum, it wasn't just the style. There's a reason why
SA win a lot of scrum penalties and it's not because of the
ref's origins.
#Post#: 114452--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dan Cole...Genuine question!
DIR By: Yareet
Date: October 23, 2023, 6:38 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Banstead Quin link ---
>
> Yep, sorry Yareet, have to agree with Jammy on this one. When
the draw was made (back in 2003, if you believe the Irish) in
2020 I immediately screamed out that that was at least a semi
(Mrs BQ got a bit distressed until she realised I was talking
about rugby!) and we hadn't fallen off of a cliff at that point.
>
> There was a lot of scepticism going into it, me included and
as much as I loved Marseille in the quarters, we did start to
show that moments of inspiration weren't enough. Saturday showed
that if the whole team play to a game plan, then you have a good
chance of pulling off a surprise. It was Farrell's best game by
far and I actually started to see all of this so called
leadership that he's supposed to have. Sadly, he then crapped
his pants with the ref, clearly out of his comfort zone.
>
> Knock out rugby is just about winning, not growing and they
couldn't find a way, which in itself is an issue. If the 6
Nations squad retires a few and leaves some in to help the next
generation then great and we can all get off Borthwick's back
but the key, for me, is the system. He needs to nail his colours
to the mast and pick based on that. If that excludes Quins
players, then so be it as I can get behind an England team that
can play to a system and deliver results based on that. I can
then get my 'thrill-seeker' rocks off at club level.
>
> Eddie never understood how important the 6 Nations is to us as
fans, as he was only focussed on the WC, Borthwick say's he
get's that and will deliver there, so let's see what happens
next.
>
--- End Quote ---
Back in 2020, it was seemingly a guaranteed semifinal. In August
2023, it definitely wasn't. And sorry if I wasn't clear but I
didn't mean that this game was about the team growing. It was
about winning and we failed to do that.
But now that the dust has settled, I can see the improvements
that the team has made. As an eternal optimist, I'll take those
and share your hope that we build on this going forward.
#Post#: 114453--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dan Cole...Genuine question!
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: October 23, 2023, 6:56 am
---------------------------------------------------------
There was certainly fear that we wouldn't make the semi. As it
is, the Fiji group was even worse than ours so we ended up
playing a team that lost to Portugal, and the only half decent
team in our group had legendary meltdown from the first whistle.
So yes, the semi final was the bare minimum. Anything less
would've been humiliation - and we came very close to that
against Fiji and needed a big slice of luck or two to scrape
past them. Fiji.
That's how low we sunk under Borthwick. He got a bad team and
made it much, much worse. The only reason why we feared Fiji is
because he turned us into a team that lost to Fiji in the first
place. And even though they were bad, they still nearly beat us
again (even with the ref on our side and them missing their most
important playmaker!)
There has never been a point in English rugby where we weren't
capable of a face saving maximum effort performance against a
good side playing poorly. That's what we saw at the weekend. It
does not change the facts of the rest of the world cup, the
dismal warm-ups and the insane selection decisions, or the
dreadful six nations. At the end of it all we've flirted with
proper humiliation in the quarters, played eye gougingly
negative rugby in the semi final, and lost.
And we're being asked to cheer that like we've won something.
#Post#: 114459--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dan Cole...Genuine question!
DIR By: MaidstoneQuin
Date: October 23, 2023, 7:10 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I don't think we will see wholesale changes for the 6 nations,
but certainly will be filtering out a lot.
This is a mix of a realistic/wishful XV
1. Marler
2. George
3. Stuart? (KS is not the answer and there arent many putting
their hands up).
4. Itoje
5. Martin
6. Curry
7. Earl
8. Mercer
9. JVP
10. Farrell
11. Murley
12. Tuilagi
13. Slade
14. Freeman
15. Steward
#Post#: 114463--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dan Cole...Genuine question!
DIR By: Banstead Quin
Date: October 23, 2023, 9:42 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Thanks MQ, for starting the team listings as a point of
reference.
I feel that it's only worth keeping those who are older if they
can bring on the next cab(s) off of the rank and that said cab's
would benefit. I'd love Joe to be there but will Genge learn (or
want to learn) from him, or is arrogance an issue? Front row
could be a problem.
Itoje, Martin, Ribbans and some good younger prospects mean the
2nd row is probably ok and Itoje needs to find a new hunger.
Back row, again multiple options. I think Curry has lost a bit
of his mojo, like Itoje, and needs to re-find himself. His
qualities are still there but he looks 'mentally' tired. Going
back to his club will help with this but I'd consider giving him
next summer off for a brain reset. Maybe a few of them actually.
No.8 is a tougher one. The cult of Mercer is still not clear to
me, no doubt he carries all day long but maybe by the 6 nations,
his try scoring and turnover stats will improve. Still think
Dommers is the prime 8 but if the 'system' is head down and
bullock, I'd rather Borthwick looked elsewhere.
Half backs, again a richness of talent here. JVP and Mitchell
look to be the favourite children so supplement them with a 3rd
who can do either/or will be fine. Still hoping Rafi makes a
come back. At 10, there are options a plenty so don't feel we
need Farrell to stick around as he will just temper their
development and if he does do another 4 years, the younger 10s
will be in their 30's before they get to lead the line at a
world cup.
Leading onto the back line, I might be as bold to say that there
are enough good younger, hungrier players that maybe this needs
less nurturing from the older guard. Again, this is tied back to
the 'system' that the coaches want to employ.
I could make a case for Ford and Slade sticking around as I've
seen lot's written about what they add to the younger players
but wouldn't want them being the main stays for another 4 years.
An interesting debate, see what happens.
#Post#: 114465--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dan Cole...Genuine question!
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: October 23, 2023, 10:35 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Curry had a monumental game against SA!
#Post#: 114466--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dan Cole...Genuine question!
DIR By: Yareet
Date: October 23, 2023, 10:53 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Banstead Quin link ---
>
> Thanks MQ, for starting the team listings as a point of
reference.
>
> I feel that it's only worth keeping those who are older if
they can bring on the next cab(s) off of the rank and that said
cab's would benefit. I'd love Joe to be there but will Genge
learn (or want to learn) from him, or is arrogance an issue?
Front row could be a problem.
>
> Itoje, Martin, Ribbans and some good younger prospects mean
the 2nd row is probably ok and Itoje needs to find a new hunger.
>
> Back row, again multiple options. I think Curry has lost a bit
of his mojo, like Itoje, and needs to re-find himself. His
qualities are still there but he looks 'mentally' tired. Going
back to his club will help with this but I'd consider giving him
next summer off for a brain reset. Maybe a few of them actually.
No.8 is a tougher one. The cult of Mercer is still not clear to
me, no doubt he carries all day long but maybe by the 6 nations,
his try scoring and turnover stats will improve. Still think
Dommers is the prime 8 but if the 'system' is head down and
bullock, I'd rather Borthwick looked elsewhere.
>
> Half backs, again a richness of talent here. JVP and Mitchell
look to be the favourite children so supplement them with a 3rd
who can do either/or will be fine. Still hoping Rafi makes a
come back. At 10, there are options a plenty so don't feel we
need Farrell to stick around as he will just temper their
development and if he does do another 4 years, the younger 10s
will be in their 30's before they get to lead the line at a
world cup.
>
> Leading onto the back line, I might be as bold to say that
there are enough good younger, hungrier players that maybe this
needs less nurturing from the older guard. Again, this is tied
back to the 'system' that the coaches want to employ.
>
> I could make a case for Ford and Slade sticking around as I've
seen lot's written about what they add to the younger players
but wouldn't want them being the main stays for another 4 years.
>
> An interesting debate, see what happens.
>
--- End Quote ---
There’s an article in today’s Torygraph to that effect. Marler
staying on but the likes of Lawes (already announced) leaving.
And I’d personally have a back row of Curry, Earl and Ludlum
based on the last few weeks.
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