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#Post#: 27290--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brexit
DIR By: Quinky
Date: August 14, 2019, 10:28 am
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--- Quote from: alexfromlondon link ---
>
> Boris's quotes and comments display an incredibly lack of tact
and sensitivity. Almost verging on Prince Phillip standards.
It's a shameful reflection on Britain as a modern nation and the
comments are a relic of another era.
>
> So...whilst the referendum needs to be respected, why should
it be done in a way that violates the UK's existing obligations
under international treaties, in particular the Good Friday
agreement.
>
> What do you have to stay to Scotland, who voted for Remain,
and will now push for another independence referendum? Are you
happy with pushing ahead with your extreme form of Brexit if it
means the UK will break up?
>
> What about Ireland? Whilst there may be longer term solutions
for the border on the horizon, what do you propose doing on 1st
November?
>
> Boris hasn't got a clue. It's all rhetoric that'll be used to
blame others when it all goes wrong.
>
> None of the infrastructure required for no-deal can possibly
be ready in time for 31st October.
>
> The withdrawal agreement won't be amended and won't be
accepted for the millionth time. No deal is not physically
possible to implement. What is the solution?
>
--- End Quote ---
None of this is in my remit. I don't know the answers, but that
doesn't mean I don't believe that the problems cannot be solved.
I might as well ask you what you're doing to cure cancer, or
ease traffic congestion.
If you find Boris's comments offensive, it suggests to me that
you're a little thin-skinned. Tact and sensitivity are nice
concepts, but in the real world they tend to slow things down,
rather than get the job done.
Why should any obligations be violated? Why should the UK break
up? Scotland voted remain, but they are part of a bigger entity
that voted to leave. Unfortunately, Sturgeon can throw her toys
out of her pram and threaten a referendum as much as she likes -
they had one, and by voting to stay in the club, they run with
the club decisions. Tails don't wag dogs.
There are many experts who say that a technological solution to
the Irish border is not impossible.I personally don't have to do
anything on 1st November.
You seem very confident of what's not possible. I disagree.I
don't have the answers that you want, but I suspect that you
wouldn't believe anyone who does. Brexit is a bitter pill to
swallow, for the people who didn't want it. But perhaps if they
accepted the reality, and helped to work towards a better
outcome instead of trying to subvert it, we might be able to
move forwards. Perhaps that is the solution.
#Post#: 27299--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brexit
DIR By: Everyone’s a Quinner
Date: August 14, 2019, 8:12 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Quinky link ---
>
> You seem very confident of what's not possible. I disagree.I
don't have the answers that you want, but I suspect that you
wouldn't believe anyone who does. Brexit is a bitter pill to
swallow, for the people who didn't want it. But perhaps if they
accepted the reality, and helped to work towards a better
outcome instead of trying to subvert it, we might be able to
move forwards. Perhaps that is the solution.
>
--- End Quote ---
Exactly Quinky 👏🏽
Togetherness, thick skin, optimism, belief in our country and
it’s people and our businesses. This whole “I won’t believe it
til I see it” negative, bitter attitude and sour way thinking
paired with a lack of belief some people have in ourselves and
our country going forward really grinds my gears.
The thing I often find with this is that a certain group of
negative Remainers who don’t want to accept the result is this:
they were quick to advocate the idea of “Say no to leaving
Europe, we need to be joint at the hip in every way and show
togetherness otherwise the world will crumble”. Now, that way of
thinking is all well and good, yet once the result concluded to
Leave it was a big shame that the togetherness spirit they were
promoting before the vote can’t be applied going forward into
Leaving. Where did the togetherness go to then in regards to
ourselves and our country for the benefit of all going forward?
Instead of carrying on with that spirit, the certain group of
bitter Remainers all of a sudden want to drop that way of
thinking and divide the U.K. and it’s people further by
hijacking everything possible to do with Leave. Sorry but I
don’t buy it. For example if I genuinely wanted more than
anything to Remain and nattered on about togetherness in doing
so, I would also honour those same values of Togetherness in
relation to Leaving (instead dropping the whole Togetherness
spiel because the vote didn’t go the way I wanted it to). It’s
not a good look and it really decloaks the disguise of the nicey
nice teddy bear picknick way of thinking when things don’t go
the way they want.
I have a distant memory of a saying many of us used to love to
bellow out associate it with Britishness. What was it again? Oh
there it is....
“Keep Calm and Carry On”
We used to sell that on T-shirts to adverts, china mugs to
posters on walls. We used to sell it to tourists visiting us;
they must think we are crazy as a box of frogs looking at us now
as many of us have clearly forgotten it and don’t seem to
promote that great saying we used to be so proud of. Where the
heck did that british optimism go.
I would like to state that I don’t mean to provoke anyone by
saying this, but it has to be said because it’s true. True
colours are true colours and no matter what way you would like
the world to be run, if you promote principles then apply the
same principles to either way things go. Acting like salty
football supporters after a loss, turning on their own team and
giving lip to the opposition supporters isn’t the way forward,
acting like inclusive rugby supporters mixing with the
opposition regardless of a win or loss, shaking hands, sharing
drinks and toasting to the future for both teams is the way to
go about it. Again not looking for an argument, just puzzled.
#Post#: 27426--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brexit
DIR By: guest257
Date: August 18, 2019, 2:50 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Togetherness? Teamwork? Optimistic vision for the future? You’ve
gotta be kidding. I absolutely refuse to be part of a team with
Farage, Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Trump, Putin, the extreme right wing
disaster capitalists that have driven this. That’s not my
country and I want it back.
The damage done by leavers, and the vitriol and hatred spewed by
the filthy press (Mail, Express, Telegraph etc) is too great to
repair now.
Leavers probably want remainers back on the team because they
know they need them on board to sort their mess out. But Sorry,
they’ve burnt their own house down. They can clear up the mess.
I’m longing for the moment that the penny drops, these
fantasists are held to account and challenged as to why they
haven’t been able to deliver any one of the ridiculous promises
they’ve made in relation to Brexit.
We shall see what happens on 31 October.
#Post#: 27436--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brexit
DIR By: Everyone’s a Quinner
Date: August 18, 2019, 3:54 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: alexfromlondon link ---
>
> Togetherness? Teamwork? Optimistic vision for the future?
You’ve gotta be kidding. I absolutely refuse to be part of a
team with Farage, Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Trump, Putin, the extreme
right wing disaster capitalists that have driven this. That’s
not my country and I want it back.
>
> The damage done by leavers, and the vitriol and hatred spewed
by the filthy press (Mail, Express, Telegraph etc) is too great
to repair now.
>
> Leavers probably want remainers back on the team because they
know they need them on board to sort their mess out. But Sorry,
they’ve burnt their own house down. They can clear up the mess.
I’m longing for the moment that the penny drops, these
fantasists are held to account and challenged as to why they
haven’t been able to deliver any one of the ridiculous promises
they’ve made in relation to Brexit.
>
> We shall see what happens on 31 October.
>
--- End Quote ---
You assume too much. Settle down and don’t believe what the
biased BBC tells you and all of the fat cat CEO’s of London who
only care about their own pockets being hit and not yours.
Because it’s their personal bonus pockets that will get hit
mostly, not yours.
Don’t put all leavers in the same basket. It’s rude, obnoxious
and darn right childish. I don’t put all the remainers in one
basket now do I? It’s not the right wing that has driven this,
it’s the oppressive left wing and their lack of respect to
democracy that has done this. With respect
#Post#: 27438--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brexit
DIR By: Quinky
Date: August 18, 2019, 4:04 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: alexfromlondon link ---
>
> Togetherness? Teamwork? Optimistic vision for the future?
You’ve gotta be kidding. I absolutely refuse to be part of a
team with Farage, Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Trump, Putin, the extreme
right wing disaster capitalists that have driven this. That’s
not my country and I want it back.
>
> The damage done by leavers, and the vitriol and hatred spewed
by the filthy press (Mail, Express, Telegraph etc) is too great
to repair now.
>
> Leavers probably want remainers back on the team because they
know they need them on board to sort their mess out. But Sorry,
they’ve burnt their own house down. They can clear up the mess.
I’m longing for the moment that the penny drops, these
fantasists are held to account and challenged as to why they
haven’t been able to deliver any one of the ridiculous promises
they’ve made in relation to Brexit.
>
> We shall see what happens on 31 October.
>
--- End Quote ---
I see. This suggests that you are typically a part of the
problem.
Let's hypothesise here. If we had a general election and, heaven
forbid, Labour got into power by a narrow margin. Imagine, say,
48% of the populace "refusing to be a part of" a country led by
Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott et al, then rebelling against anything
that the elected government tried to do.
Can you see that going well? Not quite democracy, is it?
#Post#: 27443--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brexit
DIR By: guest257
Date: August 18, 2019, 5:09 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I think it would be perfectly reasonable for that % to rebel
against them if they patronised them, lied to them, refused to
engage with them, had broken electoral law to get into their
position, and delivered something entirely different and more
extreme to what was promised during their election campaign.
Then I think it would be ok to object.
Holding politicians to account is not being a part of the
problem. What many leavers don’t understand is that having a
strong robust opposition strengthens us as it holds those
responsible to account to deliver a better solution. It
shouldn’t be a dictatorship
However Farage, Johnson, Rees-Mogg etc don’t like that though
because they know that when their ideas are challenged, they
fall apart as the fantasy that they are.
#Post#: 27497--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brexit
DIR By: Quinky
Date: August 20, 2019, 3:56 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: alexfromlondon link ---
>
> I think it would be perfectly reasonable for that % to rebel
against them if they patronised them, lied to them, refused to
engage with them, had broken electoral law to get into their
position, and delivered something entirely different and more
extreme to what was promised during their election campaign.
Then I think it would be ok to object.
>
> Holding politicians to account is not being a part of the
problem. What many leavers don’t understand is that having a
strong robust opposition strengthens us as it holds those
responsible to account to deliver a better solution. It
shouldn’t be a dictatorship
>
> However Farage, Johnson, Rees-Mogg etc don’t like that though
because they know that when their ideas are challenged, they
fall apart as the fantasy that they are.
>
--- End Quote ---
You stated "I absolutely refuse to be part of a team with
Farage, Johnson, Rees-Mogg". Unfortunately for you, these people
are elected. You may not like how they got there, but more
people voted for them than for anyone else. That's called
democracy. You may decide that people have lied, broken
promises, broken laws - but you are not judge and jury. You have
no right to decide what they can or can't do. There is a due
process for that, and again, if it's followed then you (along
with the rest of the population) have to accept decisions that
you may not agree with.
#Post#: 27549--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brexit
DIR By:
Date: August 20, 2019, 8:12 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: alexfromlondon link ---
>
> I think it would be perfectly reasonable for that % to rebel
against them if they patronised them, lied to them, refused to
engage with them, had broken electoral law to get into their
position, and delivered something entirely different and more
extreme to what was promised during their election campaign.
Then I think it would be ok to object.
>
> Holding politicians to account is not being a part of the
problem. What many leavers don’t understand is that having a
strong robust opposition strengthens us as it holds those
responsible to account to deliver a better solution. It
shouldn’t be a dictatorship
>
> However Farage, Johnson, Rees-Mogg etc don’t like that though
because they know that when their ideas are challenged, they
fall apart as the fantasy that they are.
>
--- End Quote ---
Alex, you have to understand that in this country there are
different views and perspectives. You can’t go around assuming
and bellowing our that all Leavers are something, just because
little old sour you voted the opposite which was to Remain. I
highly respect your wishes were to Remain and I think it’s
admirable of you to stand by that. But that doesn’t mean you
have a right to naysay all Leavers all the while branding all of
them stupid. No two people are the same, even if there is only
two sides in Leaving or Remaining. There is no valid argument
when people say “Leavers didn’t know what they wanted” or “The
question should have been more specific on the ballot paper as
there are so many ways of going about either leaving or
remaining”. Because no two people are the same is the exact
reason why it was a simple Leave or Remain vote. When you bring
in other complexities to the question we will never get any
where and people will be squabbling forever more with no clear
answer because everyone has a different view on how to Leave or
Remain. The vote was a simple question because of this. And with
that simple question people took part in voting and the vote
ultimately led to a Leave vote. How or why is the governments
problem to sort out, the people did their bit in deciding and
voting. The most democratic way to do this was two plain
options, not 22 different ones. It causes more complexities and
even more squabbling. It is not simple and confuses the country
even more so, rather opposite to your claims that people didn’t
know what they wanted. Some people (Leavers and Remainers)
didn’t know how they wanted to either Leave or Remain and what
deals/no-deals to be arranged, they literally just knew what
they wanted and their feelings about about the EU were and why
they either wanted to Leave or Remain. That’s their feelings on
the EU (the undemocratic corporation, not to be confused with
the continent and it’s people who are actually quite nice) just
for clarification. It’s up to the government to sort out the
rest, and to do that they completed the first steps whereby the
democratic vote led to leave. The next steps should have been to
do it in the way the government feels along with the deadline
that if they couldn’t decide what to do in the best interests of
all involved, they would Leave via No Deal on March 31st 2019.
It’s their problem if they didn’t pull their fingers out until
the final year of debating this as (if you like) and that they
couldn’t sort out a deal to your liking, you can blame it on
them, not the Leavers. There was in this time of 3 years a
general election regarding Mrs Mays tenure and direction in
which she survived at the time, and then further along the line
a vote of no confidence which failed, no wonder, with Corbyn
behind it. What should have happened on the 31st March 2019 was
to leave with no deal due to our governments (under May) failure
to Leave with a deal which was put to vote and among other
options where we ended up with people hijacking what was written
in the law to leave with no deal. Since then the conservatives
fairly had to vote for a new PM from their party, completely
fine to do so as this issue is regarding Brexit and technically
still their party leading the government for this time period
until the next general election. They’ve done that in Boris
Johnson and now it looks finally like there is some clear
direction in Leaving (we negotiate a fair and democratic deal
for both sides of the U.K. & the EU. If we can’t negotiate,
where you will see that the UK is trying to but the unelected
leaders of the EU do not want to, then we will Leave by November
31st 2019 with No Deal. Finally we have some sense of direction
and also a back bone. The ball is now in the EU’s court. If they
do not want to renegotiate, then we have decided we do not like
their current proposal and will leave with No Deal. Fair and
square.
If you don’t like that, then your chance to voice your opinion
on it will be in the next general election where you will have a
fair and democratic chance to vote for what you want to vote
for, or moreover who. Until such time, you have to surf the wave
you are currently on, whether you agree with it or not. Just
like the time when the EU elections were cast, it was clear that
most Leavers still want to Leave, as well as newly ascertained
ones in people now of the legal age to vote, and by once
Remainers now being converted to Leave. The vote happened when
it happened and in a fair fashion, not brought forward or
delayed unfairly. The same should happen in an general election,
it should come about when it’s due to, not before or after due
to meddling of a petty group of select Remainers in government.
I recently read a post on social media which I will now consider
going forward:
Before you argue with someone, ask yourself: Is that person even
mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different
perspectives?
Because if not, there is absolutely no point
Look I have high respect for you as I’m sure you are a good
person, nice guy and you are right to have your views and to
express them as is anyone, so long as they don’t mean harm. I
sincerely mean you no harm in my argument. But I cannot go on
further if you can’t grasp the concept of different
perspectives. Or if you keep putting every Leaver under the sun
in the same basket. We are not all horrible and we are not all
far right, most of us just don’t want to be in the EU.
#Post#: 27929--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brexit
DIR By: guest257
Date: September 3, 2019, 10:26 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Great start for Boris...
Lied about talks with EU (there have been no fundamental changes
taken forward).
Lost his majority.
Lost his first key vote which will, hopefully, take a mad no
deal off the table.
Couldn’t happen to a nicer bunch. This is the problem when all
you have is tub thumping rhetoric.
#Post#: 27989--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brexit
DIR By: Quinky
Date: September 6, 2019, 12:47 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Meanwhile Jezza finally gets offered the general election he's
been clamouring for since the last one, and declines it. Boris
is doing a great job of showing him up to be what he is... A
professional objector who hasn't moved on from the sixth form
common room.
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