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#Post#: 18933--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brexit
By: TomBuckQuin Date: March 13, 2019, 4:10 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
We won't leave on 29th and you know it - no matter how much you
try and deny it to yourself. I'm loving the chaos tonight. One
step closer to another referendum. One step closer to remain. I
wait in hope.
Why can Brexiteer/leavers not answer the question Alex put
forward HONESTLY? The question I'm talking about: why is it
undemocratic to revisit democracy? Let me run a hypothetical
past you...
We have another referendum. The turnout is HIGHER than it was
before (you don't expect that, I know, because it doesn't suit
your story). The country votes 52% - 48% the other way (to
remain). And guess what? Parliament has a majority. Brexit
undone.
And that's the crux isn't it? You KNOW that would be, by
definition, democratic. You KNOW that this cohort of voters
would have voted based on an actual knowledge about what Brexit
looks like with flesh on rather than the lies, rhetoric and
lowest-common-denominator-bear-baiting tactics that were peddled
previously. And you're scared of that - just admit it.
I'm being a bit inflammatory, but that's how I view you. And I
don't know how you can convince me that's not your fear. If you
were at least honest about that I could have respect for you.
Unfortunately, every time a Brexiteer tells me it's the death of
democracy to take it back to the people, they can wave goodbye
to that respect I wish I could have for them. But it's a catchy
line and Theresa May has trotted it out robotically and you've
bought it. I guess I shouldn't blame you - I should pity you.
#Post#: 18944--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brexit
By: Date: March 13, 2019, 6:31 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=TomBuckQuin link=topic=616.msg18933#msg18933
date=1552511424]
We won't leave on 29th and you know it - no matter how much you
try and deny it to yourself. I'm loving the chaos tonight. One
step closer to another referendum. One step closer to remain. I
wait in hope.
Why can Brexiteer/leavers not answer the question Alex put
forward HONESTLY? The question I'm talking about: why is it
undemocratic to revisit democracy? Let me run a hypothetical
past you...
We have another referendum. The turnout is HIGHER than it was
before (you don't expect that, I know, because it doesn't suit
your story). The country votes 52% - 48% the other way (to
remain). And guess what? Parliament has a majority. Brexit
undone.
And that's the crux isn't it? You KNOW that would be, by
definition, democratic. You KNOW that this cohort of voters
would have voted based on an actual knowledge about what Brexit
looks like with flesh on rather than the lies, rhetoric and
lowest-common-denominator-bear-baiting tactics that were peddled
previously. And you're scared of that - just admit it.
I'm being a bit inflammatory, but that's how I view you. And I
don't know how you can convince me that's not your fear. If you
were at least honest about that I could have respect for you.
Unfortunately, every time a Brexiteer tells me it's the death of
democracy to take it back to the people, they can wave goodbye
to that respect I wish I could have for them. But it's a catchy
line and Theresa May has trotted it out robotically and you've
bought it. I guess I shouldn't blame you - I should pity you.
[/quote]
I believe we will leave on the 29th of March. I have great faith
we will as the government is too shambolic to come together to
meaningfully sort something in the mean time, even if they think
they have something to work off. In any case, you are as deluded
as this government if you believe we won’t leave at all.
Because a democratic decision has been made, we should stand by
it. The problem isn’t the decision to leave itself, it’s the
donuts in charge and how to leave. Every referendum doesn’t have
a 2nd referendum just because one side doesn’t like it, or
because the people running the show haven’t done the best job in
getting us to leave. Things which hamper this whole operation is
Remoaners, dishonest and immature MP’s, opposition in Jeremy
“Can’t make my mind up, oh wait I know, I’ll just keep calling
for general elections” Corbyn, and somewhat putting remainers in
charge of leaving in the first place. The problem you have with
your precious and possessed idea of a second referendum now is
that not much of the country is interested, the country doesn’t
need it nor will it be healthy for both sides or for democracy
itself. If you lack that vision, try to see that it’s due to
intrusive niggling that we haven’t excelled in working out a
better deal in the first place. If we had have got on with it
with the right people and if the MP’s acted with some honour and
hadn’t have tried to clamp our moving wheel, we would be off and
already in the right direction. It’s undemicratic to have
another vote, I could turn round and do a Remoaners after
tonight’s 312-308 and say “oh well given as that was so close
and me and my side doesn’t like the way it’s gone, that’s not
fair, let’s have another one”. Silly childish behaviour and
games.
It’s undemocratic because of the principle; people from both
sides see this and will then ponder what will become of
democratic votes in governments and so forth in the future, what
is the point of having a vote if it’s final decision gets
changed. People won’t end up voting as they feel like no matter
what even if their vote won, it can be so easily overturned now.
This will be the start of the flood gates opening, once done
here you will see repeats of this stupid petulant behaviour in
the future. And it won’t always go your way. That’s poker for
you, at some point you’ll trip on your own game.
You may call a 2nd vote democratic if it went your way but how
should that vote prevail over the first one when they were both
held in the same format and democratic way. Think about it. You
can’t have your cake and eat it, democracy when it suits you.
When push comes to shove you’ll discover that most of those MP’s
who oppose Brexit and putting it at risk are doing it for their
own career and party interests and the keys to No10.
Of course as a Leaver I’d fear not leaving, it’s what I BELIEVE
in and what I voted for. And of course because of this meddling
and sabotage I would fear for democracy itself. Look at you for
pointing out the obvious and mocking fear. Like you’ve not been
sat in it before. Does that make you feel big or something?
That sums you up “I’m loving the chaos tonight”. That sums up
pretty much how adult thinking you are on this subject, you
don’t get your own way in the OG vote so you throw your power
rangers out your pram. You mock others for what they believe in
and throw out insults because you can’t see that we actually
believe in our country and its people if we were to Leave. You
fail to see that there were lies on both sides, you fail to see
the scaremongering, you fail realise this behaviour from our
MP’s will now be extremely damaging to the people’s little faith
they already had in politics and leave a foul taste in people’s
mouths, you fail to just accept the OG and final result, you
fail to respect the people who voted for it or recognise that we
are all different people; no one is the same and for you to
brandish every Leaver as ill informed, racist, dumb.. I find
that rather inflammatory. We all have many different reasons for
wanting to leave and there are many, I don’t have to keep
listing them. Urgh, take a bath and rinse yourself of your biast
stupidity. It’s you I pity.
Tom, you seem like a really nice bloke generally and I value
your opinions on the Harlequins topics. I hate to address your
comments in the same manner you’ve shown me, but this just
doesn’t stick with me. You mock me and others from the very
start in an attacking stance just because you want an asnswer
for everything I or other Leavers do, believe in or say. You
will never change your mind and I will never change mine. We
don’t have to agree on everything. I would like to think we
could meet for a drink (a cola for me as I’m don’t like alcohol)
some time at The Stoop, enjoy rugby conversations, agree about
how much we like Mike Brown and not so keen on Elliot Daly at 15
for England, and accept that we don’t see eye to eye on Brexit.
I’m ok with that fact.
Let’s leave it here and how about instead of hoping for our
separate sides to win, let’s instead hope for mutual respect,
and in the long term success for our country. You might even
find that patriotism again.
I take my leave.
#Post#: 18959--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brexit
By: deadlyfrom5yardsout Date: March 14, 2019, 4:18 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Even the MP's who are Brexiteers are voting against the deal?
WTF? The deal is not i-deal but it is a compromise worked out
between two opposing sides with disparate approaches. It's not
all about us, there is another party to this deal. Why on earth
can't we just take what is the best we can currently get at this
moment in time then do what we do best which is work to
gradually improve various aspects over the coming years?
#Post#: 18997--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brexit
By: guest257 Date: March 14, 2019, 8:47 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=deadlyfrom5yardsout
link=topic=616.msg18959#msg18959 date=1552555117]
Even the MP's who are Brexiteers are voting against the deal?
WTF? The deal is not i-deal but it is a compromise worked out
between two opposing sides with disparate approaches. It's not
all about us, there is another party to this deal. Why on earth
can't we just take what is the best we can currently get at this
moment in time then do what we do best which is work to
gradually improve various aspects over the coming years?
[/quote]
I agree with this.
But it comes down to ignorance and naivety. Leavers don't like
the deal because it doesn't meet what they fantasised about and
were promised. That's because they were lied to. That's
because the implications of leaving weren't understood.
The reality is it's never going to get any better than this.
This is the deal we've got.
If it's not what you wanted and is damaging to the country
there's nothing to re-open, nothing to re-think. You accept
this and the damage it creates, or call off Brexit.
#Post#: 19003--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brexit
By: BedfordshireBoy Date: March 14, 2019, 9:11 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Makes my head hurt watching this fiasco rumble on. I voted to
remain but fully accept that we should now leave I just want the
politicians to get on with it. I believe that we would be in a
very weak position if we were to remain so we need to bite the
bullet and sort it out. No deal exit "feels" wrong as those
advocating it were the same people saying that the EU would come
crawling to us looking for a deal. Is The May Deal that bad, I
don't know enough about it?
#Post#: 19054--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brexit
By: Quinky Date: March 15, 2019, 8:16 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=TomBuckQuin link=topic=616.msg18933#msg18933
date=1552511424]
We won't leave on 29th and you know it - no matter how much you
try and deny it to yourself. I'm loving the chaos tonight. One
step closer to another referendum. One step closer to remain. I
wait in hope.
Why can Brexiteer/leavers not answer the question Alex put
forward HONESTLY? The question I'm talking about: why is it
undemocratic to revisit democracy? Let me run a hypothetical
past you...
We have another referendum. The turnout is HIGHER than it was
before (you don't expect that, I know, because it doesn't suit
your story). The country votes 52% - 48% the other way (to
remain). And guess what? Parliament has a majority. Brexit
undone.
And that's the crux isn't it? You KNOW that would be, by
definition, democratic. You KNOW that this cohort of voters
would have voted based on an actual knowledge about what Brexit
looks like with flesh on rather than the lies, rhetoric and
lowest-common-denominator-bear-baiting tactics that were peddled
previously. And you're scared of that - just admit it.
I'm being a bit inflammatory, but that's how I view you. And I
don't know how you can convince me that's not your fear. If you
were at least honest about that I could have respect for you.
Unfortunately, every time a Brexiteer tells me it's the death of
democracy to take it back to the people, they can wave goodbye
to that respect I wish I could have for them. But it's a catchy
line and Theresa May has trotted it out robotically and you've
bought it. I guess I shouldn't blame you - I should pity you.
[/quote]
I've only just stared reading this thread - lunchtime, taking a
break from working, no team selection to comment on etc. So,
apologies of my points have been brought up previously.
For the record, I didn't vote in the referendum for purely
logistical reasons. But I would have voted to leave. Had the
result gone the other way I'd have been willing to simply move
on, much as I do after each General Election. You buy a lotto
ticket, but you're not guaranteed to win.
I will be disappointed if there is a delay to Brexit, because it
seems that since the referendum there has been a concerted
effort by many people to simply derail it from day one. I also
think it would be massive slap around the face for voters if
there were a second referendum - a kind of "you got it wrong,
vote again" scenario. But here is my question, in the light of
your hypothetical scenario: IF there were a second referendum
with a higher turnout, what would happen if the result were the
same, or even with a higher margin? It seems that everyone
crying out for a second vote is certain that the result would be
reversed, but the same people would have been equally certain of
a different outcome first time around, I feel.
As regards mainstream politics, I think there needs to be a big
change. Not necessarily the way of proportional representation,
but in the actual people involved. Too many MPs are career
politicians with no experience of real life; too many seem
intent only on tripping up and disrupting the other side, and
too many are seemingly on massive ego trips whilst sneering down
at those that they don't agree with.
Much like the police, NHS, local councils etc, I just want
people who will get the job done, not the career-driven, PC,
self-serving out-of-touch swine that we see all too often.
#Post#: 19079--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brexit
By: guest257 Date: March 15, 2019, 2:38 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
It’s only my opinion, but I just can’t see how another
referendum would be undemocratic.
We now know what Brexit will look like, it’s complex and
challenging and there are implications that we didn’t know to
sure. It is only right to reaffirm for those that voted Brexit
that this is what they wanted and still the best for the
country.
I actually think it’s a bit outrageous to deny that opportunity,
considering how many lies and untruths were told by both sides
and continue to be told.
Now we have reality, not fantasy. Take it or leave it. It’s the
right thing to ask again, considering the magnitude of the
decision.
#Post#: 19085--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brexit
By: Date: March 15, 2019, 4:12 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=alexfromlondon link=topic=616.msg19079#msg19079
date=1552678729]
It’s only my opinion, but I just can’t see how another
referendum would be undemocratic.
We now know what Brexit will look like, it’s complex and
challenging and there are implications that we didn’t know to
sure. It is only right to reaffirm for those that voted Brexit
that this is what they wanted and still the best for the
country.
I actually think it’s a bit outrageous to deny that opportunity,
considering how many lies and untruths were told by both sides
and continue to be told.
Now we have reality, not fantasy. Take it or leave it. It’s the
right thing to ask again, considering the magnitude of the
decision.
[/quote]
I understand where you are coming from and agree to some extent,
but to be fair though, who’s to say we know for certain what
implications we would have had in the future if we were to
Remain? Just my opinion but I don’t like the things the EU wants
to do in the future and I don’t like the direction it’s taking
in its ventures etc.
No one can fully say what something looks like in the future,
for example all the doom and gloom predictions that were being
amplified to the public about chaos ensuing the very day the
votes decision was clear, but most predictions proved to be
wrong after the referendum result. Either way, you can never be
100% sure
#Post#: 19190--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brexit
By: deadlyfrom5yardsout Date: March 18, 2019, 7:59 am
---------------------------------------------------------
It is an odd one. We all seem to agree that ignoring the
referendum result is undemocratic (except Alex who has a
bumblebee in his knickers about it..:) ) yet Mrs May, who I
greatly admire for sheer British Bulldog spirit, is able to keep
recalling a vote on her deal until she gets the result she
wants.
I also would like to point out that there are just as many ill
informed "Remain" voters who, for example, seem happy for the EU
to edge closer to being a Republic with its own Armed Forces and
its own Foreign Minister plus we won't be able to stay out of
the EU Monetary system for ever. Not to mention the unelected
bureaucracy and the £billions of waste and duplication.
As somebody said above you cannot predict the future and you
should deal with the current facts at hand and act accordingly.
There was ignorance on both sides of the Leave/Remain divide but
even as a person who voted Remain I now think of myself as a
Leaver because we have had the vote and it is time to move on.
All this uncertainty is far more damaging to Business and
Commercial interests which in turn creates jobs than any Brexit
will. Get on with it!!!
#Post#: 19274--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brexit
By: deadlyfrom5yardsout Date: March 19, 2019, 4:57 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Everyone’s a Quinner
link=topic=616.msg19085#msg19085 date=1552684344]
I understand where you are coming from and agree to some extent,
but to be fair though, who’s to say we know for certain what
implications we would have had in the future if we were to
Remain? Just my opinion but I don’t like the things the EU wants
to do in the future and I don’t like the direction it’s taking
in its ventures etc.
No one can fully say what something looks like in the future,
for example all the doom and gloom predictions that were being
amplified to the public about chaos ensuing the very day the
votes decision was clear, but most predictions proved to be
wrong after the referendum result. Either way, you can never be
100% sure
[/quote]
Have received your PM but having trouble replying as the system
keeps changing your user name to lower case.....hopefully Kim Il
DOK will be able to advise...?
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