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#Post#: 18867--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brexit
By: TomBuckQuin Date: March 12, 2019, 12:43 pm
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Looks like Terry M is going to take another kicking this
evening. What happens after she gets spanked in Unmeaningful
Vote 2.0? We must be heading towards a General Election or
another referendum, surely?
#Post#: 18868--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brexit
By: Fearless Fred Date: March 12, 2019, 1:18 pm
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A General Election wouldn't solve anything regarding Brexit. How
could the likes of Rees Mogg and Irritable Duncan Syndrome
seriously campaign on the same platform as someone like Ken
Clarke & Dominic Grieve wrt Brexit? They are diametrically at
odds. Similarly in Labour, for all his protestations I think
that Magic Grandpa still hankers for Lexit so that he can found
a true socialist paradise, which would be completely
antithetical to the likes of Cooper & Starmer etc. Throw in that
a General Election is fought on multiple issues combined with
the FPTP that leads to pretty much every government in the last
30 years being elected by a minority of the voters who voted,
and no-one can claim a real mandate for whatever their Brexit
manifesto pledge is.
In five years time I think we will be looking at a fundamentally
different political landscape. Neither of the two main parties
is going to survive this whole fiasco unscathed. I think the
Tory splits will be larger than Labour, but I can see both
parties splitting.
I was chatting to a colleague at work about all this today as we
were trying to work out what we would need to do with a shipment
of products that is currently making its way by container from
China for us to distribute globally after they land here in
early April. we both came to a realisation that perhaps the best
thing for the country is that the two large edifices of the Tory
& Labour parties have left us fossilised in early 20th Century
politics. It would be far better for there to be more parties,
spread out across the various political spectra, and that
Governments were formed of multi-party coalitions after
elections, rather than a single party in control of the
Executive and the Legislative arms of government. I know it's
easy to say "Yeah, but Italy...". True, their system is chaotic,
but Germany seem to do okay with that sort of system, as do the
Scandiwegians, Belgians, etc. Forming a consensus that the
majority can agree to may not be good "TV Punch & Judy"
politics, but it is surely better than what we have at the
moment.
#Post#: 18873--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brexit
By: BedfordshireBoy Date: March 12, 2019, 2:45 pm
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I agree FF, although the LibDems paid a heavy price in the last
election, I for one thought that the coalition worked well by
curbing the extremes of both parties.
#Post#: 18874--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brexit
By: guest257 Date: March 12, 2019, 2:48 pm
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It’s a very very tricky situation. I didn’t expect it to be this
bad, and for the deal to be so comprehensively disliked....It is
after all only the first stage of the departure and gives a
platform to build the future relationship.
I still don’t think anyone really knows what they want, why they
want it etc. in relation to Brexit. It’ll never get resolved.
It’ll never be accepted. The division is too profound.
Last year I was convinced people might settle on a soft Norway
style relationship that would be a good compromise. We are some
way off that.
I agree with what’s been said about political reform. We need a
new type of activism and intelligent engagement with the
process.
I’m sorry for those that may be disappointed but I just can’t
see Brexit happening now any time soon...
#Post#: 18892--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brexit
By: deadlyfrom5yardsout Date: March 13, 2019, 6:15 am
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I voted Remain.
To say nobody knows what they want in my view is a comment
restricted to Politicians. In my view every politician knows
exactly what they want and is self evident.
The people know exactly what they want too and have already said
so.
If there is a second referendum I will vote but I will vote
Leave because I passionately believe that it is anti-democratic
to ignore an existing mandate simply because it is not the
answer you wanted.
Further down the line you can revisit the whole imbroglio,
hopefully in a more measured and informed way. As Remoaners have
been stating that the referendum result is flawed because all
those silly brexiteers were ill informed and easily swayed by
propoganda promises, so it will be good to have experienced
operating as an independent nation outside the EU so we can all
make a truly valued judgement.
#Post#: 18907--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brexit
By: guest257 Date: March 13, 2019, 8:45 am
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[quote author=deadlyfrom5yardsout
link=topic=616.msg18892#msg18892 date=1552475725]
I voted Remain.
To say nobody knows what they want in my view is a comment
restricted to Politicians. In my view every politician knows
exactly what they want and is self evident.
The people know exactly what they want too and have already said
so.
If there is a second referendum I will vote but I will vote
Leave because I passionately believe that it is anti-democratic
to ignore an existing mandate simply because it is not the
answer you wanted.
Further down the line you can revisit the whole imbroglio,
hopefully in a more measured and informed way. As Remoaners have
been stating that the referendum result is flawed because all
those silly brexiteers were ill informed and easily swayed by
propoganda promises, so it will be good to have experienced
operating as an independent nation outside the EU so we can all
make a truly valued judgement.
[/quote]
The problem is though that "leave" was not clearly and
consistently defined, and the implications of doing so weren't
known. The way "leave" was defined and voted for by many is
completely inconsistent with the political and legal reality of
the situation we are in. It's cake-ism.
A referendum or cancelling Brexit probably is the right thing to
do, IMO, now. There was no mandate for the deal Theresa May has
presented (everyone hates it and no-one will vote for it).
There is no alternative other than no-deal, which would violate
our existing international commitments, which we can't do.
Why is more democracy, i.e. confirming that people still want to
proceed with a decision through another referendum, so
undemocratic? It has been proven that we can't have what was
promised, therefore the decision to leave that was made on that
promise is invalid.
#Post#: 18922--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brexit
By: Date: March 13, 2019, 12:46 pm
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[quote author=alexfromlondon link=topic=616.msg18907#msg18907
date=1552484727]
The problem is though that "leave" was not clearly and
consistently defined, and the implications of doing so weren't
known. The way "leave" was defined and voted for by many is
completely inconsistent with the political and legal reality of
the situation we are in. It's cake-ism.
A referendum or cancelling Brexit probably is the right thing to
do, IMO, now. There was no mandate for the deal Theresa May has
presented (everyone hates it and no-one will vote for it).
There is no alternative other than no-deal, which would violate
our existing international commitments, which we can't do.
Why is more democracy, i.e. confirming that people still want to
proceed with a decision through another referendum, so
undemocratic? It has been proven that we can't have what was
promised, therefore the decision to leave that was made on that
promise is invalid.
[/quote]
Alex,
Where you say the implications of Leave aren’t known, you could
say the implications of remain aren’t known either. No one knows
where we would be 5 years down the line if we were to have
remained or left. We can have what was promised, which was
“leave the European Union”.
“Referendum on the United Kingdom’s membership on the European
Union
_______________________________
Vote only once by putting a cross [ X ] in the box of your
choice
_______________________________
Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union
or leave the European Union?
_______________________________
REMAIN A MEMBER OF THE EUROPEAN UNION [ ]
_______________________________
LEAVE THE EUROPEAN UNION [ X ]”
That was what was promised Alex. In the words of David Cameron
at the time:
“It will be your decision whether to remain in the EU on the
basis of the reforms we secure, or whether we leave.
Your decision.
Nobody else’s.
Not politicians’.
Not Parliament’s.
Not lobby groups’.
Not mine.
Just you.
You, the British people, will decide.
At that moment, you will hold this country’s destiny in your
hands.
This is a huge decision for our country, perhaps the biggest we
will make in our lifetimes.
And it will be the final decision.”
That was what was promised. It just goes to show, the Leave side
could dig up many instances of what now look like to be lies.
I voted Leave and if I had to again vote I would. Democracy
would be no more in this country if we were made to vote again,
and I believe in democracy. Any trust our great nation would
have had in our politics and democracy would be lost if Leave
isn’t honoured. Not a half in half out. Leave
#Post#: 18928--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brexit
By: Date: March 13, 2019, 2:48 pm
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Ironic now, as the so called expert MP’s who naysay Leavers by
claiming anyone who voted Leave didn’t know what they voted for,
are now the MP’s who don’t know what they are voting for or have
voted for.
They've tried to take away the one major bargaining chip we had
in the negotiations. Not to worry, it’s non binding and the next
legal step is leaving with no deal on 29th March 2019.
#Post#: 18929--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brexit
By: guest257 Date: March 13, 2019, 3:01 pm
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Lols at no deal. It’s off the table now and was never going to
happen.
Their own stupidity has wrecked the possibility of Brexit. Lack
of understanding about trade, the EU, law. Could have been
possible to have a moderate and sensible compromise but everyone
was too stubborn and entrenched.
It’s over folks. At least for a few years.
#Post#: 18930--------------------------------------------------
Re: Brexit
By: Everyone’s a Quinner Date: March 13, 2019, 3:07 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=alexfromlondon link=topic=616.msg18929#msg18929
date=1552507289]
Lols at no deal. It’s off the table now and was never going to
happen.
Their own stupidity has wrecked the possibility of Brexit. Lack
of understanding about trade, the EU, law. Could have been
possible to have a moderate and sensible compromise but everyone
was too stubborn and entrenched.
It’s over folks. At least for a few years.
[/quote]
Lmao oh but we are leaving. And if a select group of sour
Remoaners stopped trying to steel the wheels off of the locked
up bike, securing both a great deal and getting on with it
would’ve happenend.
There’s a danger of getting over excited here. It’s non binding
and we are leaving legally as it currently stands on 29th March
2019
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