DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
ComeAllWithin (Harlequins Rugby)
HTML https://comeallwithin.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: ComeAllWithin Board
*****************************************************
#Post#: 112870--------------------------------------------------
Re: Rassie Erasmus instead of Borethwick?
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: September 4, 2023, 9:40 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Quinky link ---
>
> I've never seen a winning coach that hadn't tasted defeat. And
I'd never suggest that any winning coach would suit any losing
team. No coach can guarantee success.
>
> I would question anyone who suggested that a world cup winning
coach was "not a winner".
--- End Quote ---
He is by definition a winner, but framing it as a choice between
someone who will make England winners and someone else less
likely to is far too black and white given his record imo. He
isn't someone who's won buckets of trophies in his career.
[Quote]As for supposed personality issues, would you care if the
world disliked your coach, but he'd led you to be world
champions?
[/quote]
No, but there's every chance he'd clash with the wrong people
and we've already seen what that can bring. If the personality
issues cause chaos then that world cup victory gets less likely.
Personally I think as an experienced coach who has succeeded at
the highest level, there is no doubt he would be better than
Borthwick and co. Whether he would get the best out of this
generation of players and be the right fit for the job is a much
harder question to answer - I think there's some pretty obvious
reasons why it could go badly wrong.
#Post#: 112875--------------------------------------------------
Re: Rassie Erasmus instead of Borethwick?
DIR By: Quinky
Date: September 4, 2023, 11:36 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> He is by definition a winner, but framing it as a choice
between someone who will make England winners and someone else
less likely to is far too black and white given his record imo.
He isn't someone who's won buckets of trophies in his career.
>
> No, but there's every chance he'd clash with the wrong people
and we've already seen what that can bring. If the personality
issues cause chaos then that world cup victory gets less likely.
>
> Personally I think as an experienced coach who has succeeded
at the highest level, there is no doubt he would be better than
Borthwick and co. Whether he would get the best out of this
generation of players and be the right fit for the job is a much
harder question to answer - I think there's some pretty obvious
reasons why it could go badly wrong.
>
--- End Quote ---
And that's the nub of it. He's a proven winner.
He's also a proven agitator. Sure, he gets under some people's
skins, but I'd wager that the current Springboks would choose
him over anyone else.
Management and leadership are challenging roles. Rugby has many
examples of this, and many examples where the presumed wrong
choice has indeed proven to be wrong. But if you measure by
success, then the greater the success, the less you can rely
upon luck. No coach ever won the World Cup through luck. They
all knew how to get the best out of their players on a given
day.
But it's all moot. Borthwick will be around for a while yet, and
England will have to see if he can somehow turn around their
fortunes.
#Post#: 112877--------------------------------------------------
Re: Rassie Erasmus instead of Borethwick?
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: September 4, 2023, 11:55 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, it's the "proven winner" bit that I'm not sure I agree
with. Has he won things? Yes. He's also had many jobs where he
hasn't. He's not really someone with a track record of success
whereever he goes, certainly not so much as to make his
selection a no-brainer. Jake White also won a world cup but
struggled after that in various roles, and no-one seriously
suggests he should be in charge of a T1 national side.
Clive Woodward won a World Cup, and proved with the Lions that
he was a dreadful choice to lead them.
Hey, Conor O'Shea turned Quins around and led them to a
Premiership title, and is doing a properly dreadful job for
England right now in his role... :-)
#Post#: 112879--------------------------------------------------
Re: Rassie Erasmus instead of Borethwick?
DIR By: Quinky
Date: September 4, 2023, 3:24 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> Yeah, it's the "proven winner" bit that I'm not sure I agree
with. Has he won things? Yes. He's also had many jobs where he
hasn't. He's not really someone with a track record of success
whereever he goes, certainly not so much as to make his
selection a no-brainer. Jake White also won a world cup but
struggled after that in various roles, and no-one seriously
suggests he should be in charge of a T1 national side.
>
> Clive Woodward won a World Cup, and proved with the Lions that
he was a dreadful choice to lead them.
>
> Hey, Conor O'Shea turned Quins around and led them to a
Premiership title, and is doing a properly dreadful job for
England right now in his role... :-)
>
--- End Quote ---
COS also arguably planted the seeds for the current vastly
improved Italian team.
His role in the England setup is very different. Maybe it's just
that he's in the wrong job.
#Post#: 112881--------------------------------------------------
Re: Rassie Erasmus instead of Borethwick?
DIR By: Bolly-Quin
Date: September 4, 2023, 6:26 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Guardian article:-
HTML https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/sep/04/rassie-erasmus-south-africa-new-zealand-ireland-rugby-world-cup-2023
#Post#: 112887--------------------------------------------------
Re: Rassie Erasmus instead of Borethwick?
DIR By: deadlyfrom5yardsout
Date: September 5, 2023, 3:31 am
---------------------------------------------------------
"The video was one of the best things I could do for the
Springboks at that stage. It was never meant to go public"
Rassie Erasmus
#Post#: 112891--------------------------------------------------
Re: Rassie Erasmus instead of Borethwick?
DIR By: poorfour
Date: September 5, 2023, 4:39 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Quinky link ---
>
> COS also arguably planted the seeds for the current vastly
improved Italian team.
>
> His role in the England setup is very different. Maybe it's
just that he's in the wrong job.
>
--- End Quote ---
It's also likely that COS is in a role that's focused on the
longer term. He's a systems guy and has had repeated successes
in setting up academy systems and player pipelines.
This article is a couple of years old but gives a sense of what
he's looking at (and struggling with):
HTML https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/feb/16/conor-oshea-our-job-is-to-identify-great-players-not-stocking-fillers-rfu-england
One data point on what he's trying to change is that the girls'
U16 county selection this year was focused heavily on handling
skills rather than speed or power, which the county coaches made
clear was an RFU directive.
I also seem to recall that one of COS's other major objectives
is developing the coaching pipeline - something that England has
really struggled with at the top level over the years.
#Post#: 112893--------------------------------------------------
Re: Rassie Erasmus instead of Borethwick?
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: September 5, 2023, 6:30 am
---------------------------------------------------------
He's been in the position for four years, is it not fair to say
that there's scant evidence he's improved anything given his
stated aims?
#Post#: 112899--------------------------------------------------
Re: Rassie Erasmus instead of Borethwick?
DIR By: RodneyRegis
Date: September 5, 2023, 9:13 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> He is by definition a winner, but framing it as a choice
between someone who will make England winners and someone else
less likely to is far too black and white given his record imo.
He isn't someone who's won buckets of trophies in his career.
>
> No, but there's every chance he'd clash with the wrong people
and we've already seen what that can bring. If the personality
issues cause chaos then that world cup victory gets less likely.
>
> Personally I think as an experienced coach who has succeeded
at the highest level, there is no doubt he would be better than
Borthwick and co. Whether he would get the best out of this
generation of players and be the right fit for the job is a much
harder question to answer - I think there's some pretty obvious
reasons why it could go badly wrong.
>
--- End Quote ---
Indeed, particularly as, yet again, he'd be an extremely poor
fit for the players he'd have at his disposal. SA are playing
some good rugby at the moment, but even now it's incredibly
power-based. Remember the aberration of Gatland's Lions vs
Rassie's Boks in 2021?
I don't see any evidence that a Rassie team without a humungous
pack with mostly top-3 players in their position globally is
going to turn England into world-beaters. And in the meantime
we'd be subjected to more of this retrograde style of play.
#Post#: 112900--------------------------------------------------
Re: Rassie Erasmus instead of Borethwick?
DIR By: RodneyRegis
Date: September 5, 2023, 9:16 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> Tbf the same was said about Eddie.
>
--- End Quote ---
Yep - and every other manager since SCW.
*****************************************************
Page 6 of 8
DIR Previous Page
DIR Next Page