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#Post#: 111690--------------------------------------------------
Re: Smith to start
DIR By: Marsile
Date: August 6, 2023, 1:35 pm
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--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> I've seen you spend hours arguing that Farrell would've won
games Smith didn't because he would have resorted to the boot
and not tried to play rugby from deeper positions, so it's
deeply disingenuous that you try to make out Farrell isn't well
suited to a safety first game and hasn't played like that time
and again for Saracens.
--- End Quote ---
Thanks, you just wrote a reply to something that wasn't said.
Well done you.
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
> Can you define leadership, or is this just another way to try
and say that they were bad despite a) playing exactly how they
were asked to play and b) executing their skills accurately (and
in Smith's case, c) being one of the only players actually
creating space for others). Because I don't think people who
watched Care box kick (accurately) time and again, and feed the
one-out pass time and again were thinking "why isn't he showing
more leadership???". They were thinking "this game plan is
dreadful". And they'd be right.
>
--- End Quote ---
Why did the 8,9,and 10 play the way they did? You know
definitively that they were told to play that way? They aren't
empowered to do any thinking for themselves?
What was that about being disingenuous again?
#Post#: 111692--------------------------------------------------
Re: Smith to start
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: August 6, 2023, 1:50 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Marsile link ---
> Why did the 8,9,and 10 play the way they did? You know
definitively that they were told to play that way? They aren't
empowered to do any thinking for themselves?
>
> What was that about being disingenuous again?
>
--- End Quote ---
This has nothing to do with Dombrandt - you talked about Care
and Smith, and Dombrandt didn't do what what was required of
him. The halfback pairing absolutely played to a plan. How do we
know this? Well, because it's basically the same plan from the
6N, because Borthwick's been telling everyone that teams who
kick 1000+ metres tend to win, and because two aggressive
attacking players chose to put all that to one side in order to
single-mindedly pursue a tactic that isn't their preferred style
of play. Oh, and because the replacements didn't really deviate
from it.
If you think Care and Smith chose to play kick and chase &
one-out rugby without following orders, you're barking. There is
zero evidence they went off script. There's plenty of evidence
they were doing exactly what they were being asked to do. And
worryingly for fans of England rugby, it might well have
succeeded had our wingers been able to hold onto a ball and our
forwards not drop it at every opportunity.
Of course, if you do believe that it was Care and Smith that
chose that gameplan, well, there's no real point discussing this
any further, is there?
#Post#: 111693--------------------------------------------------
Re: Smith to start
DIR By: Marsile
Date: August 6, 2023, 1:55 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> This has nothing to do with Dombrandt - you talked about Care
and Smith, and Dombrandt didn't do what what was required of
him. The halfback pairing absolutely played to a plan. How do we
know this? Well, because it's basically the same plan from the
6N, because Borthwick's been telling everyone that teams who
kick 1000+ metres tend to win, and because two aggressive
attacking players chose to put all that to one side in order to
single-mindedly pursue a tactic that isn't their preferred style
of play. Oh, and because the replacements didn't really deviate
from it.
>
> If you think Care and Smith chose to play kick and chase &
one-out rugby without following orders, you're barking. There is
zero evidence they went off script. There's plenty of evidence
they were doing exactly what they were being asked to do. And
worryingly for fans of England rugby, it might well have
succeeded had our wingers been able to hold onto a ball and our
forwards not drop it at every opportunity.
>
> Of course, if you do believe that it was Care and Smith that
chose that gameplan, well, there's no real point discussing this
any further, is there?
>
--- End Quote ---
Why don't you think Smith deserves criticism for following
coaches orders if they are not working?
Have you never criticised other (non-Quins) players who might
have been doing likewise in the past?
Using words like disingenuous carries responsibilities.
#Post#: 111694--------------------------------------------------
Re: Smith to start
DIR By: RhubarbAndGustard
Date: August 6, 2023, 2:05 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Camquin link ---
>
> According to the Rugby Paper, that was a 6 out of 10
performance all round from England, except Joe, Marcus, Jamie
Ludlam and George Martin who were rated 7.
>
--- End Quote ---
Sounds incredibly generous for a few players especially. My team
ratings (which is worth very little, I know) would be:
Genge - 6
Blamire - 3
Stuart - 6
Ribbans - 5
Martin - 5
Ludlam - 7
Pearson - 5
Dombrandt - 4
Care - 5
Smith - 6
Cokanasiga - 1
Porter - 2
Marchant - 6
Malins - 3
Steward - 7
Dan - 2
Rodd - 5
Sinckler - 5
Hill - 4
T Willis - 6
Van Poortvliet - 4
Ford - 5
Slade - 5
#Post#: 111695--------------------------------------------------
Re: Smith to start
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: August 6, 2023, 2:33 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Marsile link ---
>
>
> Why don't you think Smith deserves criticism for following
coaches orders if they are not working?
>
> Have you never criticised other (non-Quins) players who might
have been doing likewise in the past?
>
> Using words like disingenuous carries responsibilities.
>
--- End Quote ---
I certainly have repeatedly criticised players, including Quins
players, for over doing even a negative game plan. However, I
don't recall either player turning down good attacking
opportunities in order to boot the ball away, which is what
usually irritates me and other fans. If Smith had, for example,
turned down an overlap in order to badly kick the ball five
metres from the line when passing the ball would've been a
guaranteed try, then I'd have been spitting.
As it is, Smith did try and get things moving, and the times we
actually created something half decent it was usually through
him. And given he was being fed by Care most of the time, I
think we can assume Care didn't kick it away or just give it to
a forward, either.
What wasn't working wasn't the game plan. It was a dire,
negative, unlikely-to-beat-anyone-decent plan. But it was
actually proving effective, particularly in the first half. What
wasn't working was the repeated dropping of the ball in the
opposition half, or Malins and Cokanasiga's ham fisted attempts
to gather and hold on to the ball. England were actually winning
territory and possession and getting into good positions. And
then making an absolute pigs ear of it thanks to the flipper
handed idiots masquerading as rugby players.
Again, could both players have done more? Sure, yeah. Did they
play badly? No, they did what they were expected to. Are they
secure enough in their positions as third choice players that
they can go off piste with selection next week? Doubt it. But
I'd love to know what game plan they should have switched to on
their own, what with the lineout not working, the scrum not
working, and everyone dropping the ball.
#Post#: 111696--------------------------------------------------
Re: Smith to start
DIR By: DOK
Date: August 6, 2023, 2:36 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Well, getting a more balanced view from the Grauniad
HTML https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2023/aug/06/england-auditioners-fluff-their-lines-and-steve-borthwick-needs-new-script
Loved this quote!
--- Quote ---
> Borthwick has identified the set piece, defence and attack as
key areas of improvement from the Six Nations (other than that
England are going swimmingly!).
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 111697--------------------------------------------------
Re: Smith to start
DIR By: Audi Quintro
Date: August 6, 2023, 2:38 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Dumbrant and Murley to be dropped
#Post#: 111699--------------------------------------------------
Re: Smith to start
DIR By: RodneyRegis
Date: August 6, 2023, 2:48 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Marsile link ---
>
>
> That's patently false. He's played 10 for England many many
times. And likely will in the 2023 RWC.
>
>
> Ah ok, so when Farrell is rubbish at 10 for England it's all
Farrell's fault.
> When Smith is surrounded by all his club teammates for England
and is rubbish then that is the coaches fault.
>
> Got it.
>
--- End Quote ---
Stop being so needy. Smith has copped so much flack. Farrell
generally gets a free pass. And yes, we know, Farrell has 3
European cups.
#Post#: 111730--------------------------------------------------
Re: Smith to start
DIR By: Ozzie
Date: August 7, 2023, 6:31 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: SwielOrNoSwiel link ---
>
> Sounds incredibly generous for a few players especially. My
team ratings (which is worth very little, I know) would be:
>
> Genge - 6
> Blamire - 3
> Stuart - 6
> Ribbans - 5
> Martin - 5
> Ludlam - 7
> Pearson - 5
> Dombrandt - 4
> Care - 5
> Smith - 6
> Cokanasiga - 1
> Porter - 2
> Marchant - 6
> Malins - 3
> Steward - 7
>
> Dan - 2
> Rodd - 5
> Sinckler - 5
> Hill - 4
> T Willis - 6
> Van Poortvliet - 4
> Ford - 5
> Slade - 5
>
--- End Quote ---
Marsile - 0
#Post#: 111737--------------------------------------------------
Re: Smith to start
DIR By: gregory p
Date: August 7, 2023, 7:48 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: DOK link ---
>
> Well, getting a more balanced view from the Grauniad
HTML https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2023/aug/06/england-auditioners-fluff-their-lines-and-steve-borthwick-needs-new-script
>
> Loved this quote!
>
--- End Quote ---
It's up there with Martin Johnson's (no, not that one, the
Independent's cricket correspondent) summary at the start of the
England cricket tour in Australia 1986/87: they have only three
problems - they can't bat, they can't bowl and they can't field.
Johnson to his credit owned up to his misjudgment when England
pretty much swept the board. I just can't see that happening in
France 2023.
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