DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
ComeAllWithin (Harlequins Rugby)
HTML https://comeallwithin.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: ComeAllWithin Board
*****************************************************
#Post#: 111677--------------------------------------------------
Re: Smith to start
DIR By: Marsile
Date: August 6, 2023, 10:21 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> No, I'm not saying Farrell plays in a different way for
Saracens than for England. I'm saying his decision making and
execution of skills are, for England, far below his usual
standard for Saracens far more often than his legend would
suggest. This pre-dates the Eddie Jones & Borthwick era(s) and
has been seen as recently as the last 6N. There is a reason he's
never nailed down the 10 shirt as his own and why he's been such
a divisive choice for England despite his unparalleled club
success.
>
> England's game plan against Wales was deliberately negative.
England's strategy was a lot of high balls, and a lot of one-out
carries, with the occasional attempt to actually play with the
ball. Both Care & Smith executed that strategy just fine, but
obviously it's a waste of their particular strengths; you could
ask any decent kicking 9 & 10 in the league to do the same with
much the same result. I recall only one time where Smith kicked
when he should've kept it in hand, and they both were pretty
accurate when asked to kick it; neither ran the ball, and Smith
made space for others pretty effectively at times.
>
> Neither player made the sort of errors that sees Farrell get
criticism. It was dull as ditchwater, but both players are
natural runners and high tempo players having to play a
low-tempo game, so what you see is what you get. I fully believe
Farrell may well have been more successful at creating something
within that structure, for what it's worth, but ultimately if
you want an England team to play that way, Ford is the man
anyway. If it had been Fin Smith not Marcus Smith producing the
exact same performance, people would've been talking about how
well he executed the game plan and the bright parts of his game
coming through, etc etc, but because it's Marcus if he doesn't
produce scintillating solo magic the rest is kinda just ignored.
>
> If it helps you save time, you can copy and paste this
response to all the other rugby forums you've posted essentially
the same stuff on about "Harlequins 8,9, 10, and 13" in your mad
obsession over our club. Marchant aside, I don't think our
players did anything particularly worth of praise, but you might
want to start looking at some other players if you want to fire
up the criticism. There were some epicly poor performances and
some absolutely awful repeat mistakes. The set piece was mostly
dreadful, the number of times certain players lost the ball
absolutely appalling, Porter was again a gaping void in the
backline, and the strategy sucked.
>
--- End Quote ---
It's no coincidence that the 8,9,10 and 13 were chosen from the
same club - it was to accelerate cohesive benefits to England.
There were none evident. The 8,9,10 axis was shooting blanks all
game. There was nobody else standing in at 10 in lieu of Smith
either.
Sometimes, you need to acknowledge that you got it wrong.
p.s If you don't think Farrell plays any different for his club
than he does for England then you have clearly never watched him
play for his club. It's nothing like the same.
#Post#: 111678--------------------------------------------------
Re: Smith to start
DIR By: RodneyRegis
Date: August 6, 2023, 10:53 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Indeed. for one thing he's never trusted to play 10 for England.
8/9/10/13 being from the same club is pointless if the team is
set up to play a style of rugby that club has never, ever, ever
played.
#Post#: 111680--------------------------------------------------
Re: Smith to start
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: August 6, 2023, 12:08 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Marsile link ---
>
>
>
> It's no coincidence that the 8,9,10 and 13 were chosen from
the same club - it was to accelerate cohesive benefits to
England. There were none evident. The 8,9,10 axis was shooting
blanks all game. There was nobody else standing in at 10 in lieu
of Smith either.
>
> Sometimes, you need to acknowledge that you got it wrong.
>
> p.s If you don't think Farrell plays any different for his
club than he does for England then you have clearly never
watched him play for his club. It's nothing like the same.
>
--- End Quote ---
I mean, the 8-9-10 axis did create at least one break up the
middle, and Smith & Marchant dovetailed nicely several times. If
you think they were the problem today you have no idea what you
were watching. Perhaps you had your eyes shut every time a
forward dropped the ball, or Malins got scragged & lost
possession, or Cokanasiga dropped the ball or refused to jump,
or Porter lost the ball in possession or dropped it, or...?
Again, there is a big difference between saying they played well
- which they didn't, Marchant aside - and pointing the fingers
at them for the display. Dombrandt is part of the pack's
failure, that's fair. Care kicked exactly as asked and shipped
it out to forwards exactly as asked. Smith did his job as well.
You should be asking why so many of the team failed at the most
basic of skills, and why the strategy was so negative.
Farrell plays "differently" for his club in that he has front
foot ball near-constantly and plays 10 near-constantly. However,
his decision making for Saracens is usually on the money. For
England, he frequently takes the wrong option or takes the right
option poorly. That's the difference. We've all seen enough
games from Saracens where they do play safety first rugby (and
yes, they've done that less in the last 12 months) and Farrell
has been very comfortable with that. We've also seen England be
a lot more expansive than this iteration, more like Saracens of
the last 12 months, and Farrell's still failed to consistently
produce the goods at 10.
However, none of this is actually about Farrell. You're so
desperate to make this a Sarries v Quins thing that despite the
Sarries involvement in the match being a horror show you've
jumped on a thread to reply to a post where Farrell is
acknowledged as someone who probably do better in the same
scenario to make it all about Saracens, because you're an
absolute mental obsessive.
p.s. We've seen what happens when you ask Dombrandt, Care,
Smith, and Marchant to play kick chase and one-out rugby with a
pack that's not capable of getting on top of the opposition when
playing in low gear. It practically defined Gustard's reign.
#Post#: 111683--------------------------------------------------
Re: Smith to start
DIR By: Marsile
Date: August 6, 2023, 12:50 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: RodneyRegis link ---
>
> Indeed. for one thing he's never trusted to play 10 for
England.
>
--- End Quote ---
That's patently false. He's played 10 for England many many
times. And likely will in the 2023 RWC.
--- Quote from: RodneyRegis link ---
>
> 8/9/10/13 being from the same club is pointless if the team is
set up to play a style of rugby that club has never, ever, ever
played.
>
--- End Quote ---
Ah ok, so when Farrell is rubbish at 10 for England it's all
Farrell's fault.
When Smith is surrounded by all his club teammates for England
and is rubbish then that is the coaches fault.
Got it.
#Post#: 111684--------------------------------------------------
Re: Smith to start
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: August 6, 2023, 12:55 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Smith wasn't rubbish. He did his job. Created space
occasionally, kicked accurately from hand, kicked all his
points, directed play. Dropped a bad pass. He did what he was
asked to do.
He's played far worse than that for England, but don't let it
stop you on your crusade.
#Post#: 111685--------------------------------------------------
Re: Smith to start
DIR By: Marsile
Date: August 6, 2023, 12:56 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> I mean, the 8-9-10 axis did create at least one break up the
middle, and Smith & Marchant dovetailed nicely several times. If
you think they were the problem today you have no idea what you
were watching. Perhaps you had your eyes shut every time a
forward dropped the ball, or Malins got scragged & lost
possession, or Cokanasiga dropped the ball or refused to jump,
or Porter lost the ball in possession or dropped it, or...?
>
> Again, there is a big difference between saying they played
well - which they didn't, Marchant aside - and pointing the
fingers at them for the display. Dombrandt is part of the pack's
failure, that's fair. Care kicked exactly as asked and shipped
it out to forwards exactly as asked. Smith did his job as well.
You should be asking why so many of the team failed at the most
basic of skills, and why the strategy was so negative.
>
> Farrell plays "differently" for his club in that he has front
foot ball near-constantly and plays 10 near-constantly. However,
his decision making for Saracens is usually on the money. For
England, he frequently takes the wrong option or takes the right
option poorly. That's the difference. We've all seen enough
games from Saracens where they do play safety first rugby (and
yes, they've done that less in the last 12 months) and Farrell
has been very comfortable with that. We've also seen England be
a lot more expansive than this iteration, more like Saracens of
the last 12 months, and Farrell's still failed to consistently
produce the goods at 10.
>
> However, none of this is actually about Farrell. You're so
desperate to make this a Sarries v Quins thing that despite the
Sarries involvement in the match being a horror show you've
jumped on a thread to reply to a post where Farrell is
acknowledged as someone who probably do better in the same
scenario to make it all about Saracens, because you're an
absolute mental obsessive.
>
> p.s. We've seen what happens when you ask Dombrandt, Care,
Smith, and Marchant to play kick chase and one-out rugby with a
pack that's not capable of getting on top of the opposition when
playing in low gear. It practically defined Gustard's reign.
>
--- End Quote ---
Nope, you still haven't identified the fundamentally different
way Farrell plays for Saracens. And it's got nothing to do with
a hopelessly naive catch-all 'front-foot ball' description that
you pulled out of your hole.
#Post#: 111686--------------------------------------------------
Re: Smith to start
DIR By: Marsile
Date: August 6, 2023, 12:57 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> Smith wasn't rubbish. He did his job. Created space
occasionally, kicked accurately from hand, kicked all his
points, directed play. Dropped a bad pass. He did what he was
asked to do.
>
> He's played far worse than that for England, but don't let it
stop you on your crusade.
>
--- End Quote ---
Both halfbacks showed very little leadership. It was limp, even
by Quins standards.
#Post#: 111687--------------------------------------------------
Re: Smith to start
DIR By: never sleep
Date: August 6, 2023, 1:06 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
If the main problem with yesterday's performance was that 2
Quins half backs were selected, then why were we equally bad, if
not worse, when both of those players were substituted?
#Post#: 111688--------------------------------------------------
Re: Smith to start
DIR By: poorfour
Date: August 6, 2023, 1:14 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
England had a kicking strategy where the kicks were executed
well enough to be contestable but neither winger did a decent
job.
When England kept the ball in hand, they made a decent number of
breaks and were making good yards in the first half. The wingers
were each presented with a decent shot at scoring and failed to
finish.
The lineout was horribly unreliable, the scrum was a lottery,
and in the second half Wales adapted to the ref's interpretation
of the breakdown and England didn't.
Van Poortvliet, Ford, Slade and Willis all came on early enough
in the second half and weren't able to change the game. If
anything, I would say England were worse once they came on.
For what it's worth, I thought Berry's decision not to penalise
and card North for what seemed to me a very clear deliberate
knock on changed the game - had that pass gone to hand Marchant
was through and would have had a very good chance of scoring.
But England had multiple chances to build a significant lead in
the first half and that they didn't take them wasn't down to the
8, 9, 10, 13 axis who were all heavily involved in creating
them.
#Post#: 111689--------------------------------------------------
Re: Smith to start
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: August 6, 2023, 1:25 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Marsile link ---
>
>
> Nope, you still haven't identified the fundamentally different
way Farrell plays for Saracens. And it's got nothing to do with
a hopelessly naive catch-all 'front-foot ball' description that
you pulled out of your hole.
>
--- End Quote ---
I've seen you spend hours arguing that Farrell would've won
games Smith didn't because he would have resorted to the boot
and not tried to play rugby from deeper positions, so it's
deeply disingenuous that you try to make out Farrell isn't well
suited to a safety first game and hasn't played like that time
and again for Saracens.
--- Quote ---
>
> Both halfbacks showed very little leadership. It was limp,
even by Quins standards.
>
--- End Quote ---
Can you define leadership, or is this just another way to try
and say that they were bad despite a) playing exactly how they
were asked to play and b) executing their skills accurately (and
in Smith's case, c) being one of the only players actually
creating space for others). Because I don't think people who
watched Care box kick (accurately) time and again, and feed the
one-out pass time and again were thinking "why isn't he showing
more leadership???". They were thinking "this game plan is
dreadful". And they'd be right.
Smith tried to spark some things and sometimes it worked, but
you'll have to go into detail as to what it was he would have to
do to have shown "leadership" in your eyes. Sign for Saracens,
probably.
Poorfour - on replay, it was clear North knocked it backwards.
*****************************************************
Page 9 of 11
DIR Previous Page
DIR Next Page