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#Post#: 111412--------------------------------------------------
Who will be in Steve Borthwick's England squad
DIR By: DOK
Date: July 31, 2023, 5:54 am
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and who will be looking over their shoulder?
HTML https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-12354417/Rugby-World-Cup-week-Steve-Borthwick-names-England-squad-whos-plane-whos-looking-shoulder.html
#Post#: 111413--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who will be in Steve Borthwick's England squad
DIR By: FatQuin
Date: July 31, 2023, 6:05 am
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That’s not the important question. The important question is
how do we build it all around Owen Farrell and then blame
everyone else when we underperform?
#Post#: 111421--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who will be in Steve Borthwick's England squad
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: July 31, 2023, 7:41 am
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Still time for Borthwick to announce 14 squads before then.
#Post#: 111422--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who will be in Steve Borthwick's England squad
DIR By: Quinten Poulsen
Date: July 31, 2023, 8:12 am
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I started reading that article and closed the page when I got to
the centres as I realised my mood had become a little
despondent.
#Post#: 111426--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who will be in Steve Borthwick's England squad
DIR By: RhubarbAndGustard
Date: July 31, 2023, 11:03 am
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--- Quote from: FatQuin link ---
>
> That’s not the important question. The important question is
how do we build it all around Owen Farrell and then blame
everyone else when we underperform?
>
--- End Quote ---
I really don’t get the Farrell hate, you only have to watch the
prem final to see how dominant he can be when played at 10
#Post#: 111429--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who will be in Steve Borthwick's England squad
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: July 31, 2023, 12:08 pm
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--- Quote from: SwielOrNoSwiel link ---
>
> I really don’t get the Farrell hate, you only have to watch
the prem final to see how dominant he can be when played at 10
>
--- End Quote ---
I don't think anyone is questioning that Farrell can be dominant
playing at 10 in club rugby for Saracens. But he's played many,
many matches at 10 for England, and he's been really quite bad
in a lot of them. If it wasn't for his club exploits there'd be
far less debate around this - people conflate what he does for
Sarries and what he does for England. There's no comparison.
#Post#: 111432--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who will be in Steve Borthwick's England squad
DIR By: Camquin
Date: July 31, 2023, 12:56 pm
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There is a difference between playing behind a dominant pack and
playing behind one that is being out-played. And it is much
easier to look good in the former case.
#Post#: 111434--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who will be in Steve Borthwick's England squad
DIR By: poorfour
Date: July 31, 2023, 1:59 pm
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--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> I don't think anyone is questioning that Farrell can be
dominant playing at 10 in club rugby for Saracens. But he's
played many, many matches at 10 for England, and he's been
really quite bad in a lot of them. If it wasn't for his club
exploits there'd be far less debate around this - people
conflate what he does for Sarries and what he does for England.
There's no comparison.
>
--- End Quote ---
Hang me for a heretic, but I think Farrell is quite similar in
style to Wilkinson, who did OK as a 10. The big difference is
that Wilko regularly Greenwood or Catt outside him - both
creative ball players who could help to call the plays. Farrell
has never really had a great 12 to partner him, and I think many
of his best England games at 10 were when Care was at 9, and at
12 he worked well with Ford, who would similarly call the plays.
I would rather not see Faz at 10 without a creative 12, and I
don't see that we have one. He's successfully played 12 with
Ford and Sexton, and I think given time and a game plan that
other players could follow, he could form a productive
partnership with Smith. He isn't actually that different from
Andre when he plays 12 - not quite the carrying impact but still
a player with good distribution and kicking skills who can also
carry hard.
The issue is whether he wants to run the show too much, and I
take a different view from most in that regard. The abiding
memory of "late stage Eddie" England is Smith running around
behind the line shouting at all and sundry to get into position,
while Faz was at 1st receiver - which suggests to me that the
issue was more with not having enough players who were on the
game plan than with their partnership.
#Post#: 111435--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who will be in Steve Borthwick's England squad
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: July 31, 2023, 2:27 pm
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--- Quote from: poorfour link ---
>
> Hang me for a heretic, but I think Farrell is quite similar in
style to Wilkinson, who did OK as a 10. The big difference is
that Wilko regularly Greenwood or Catt outside him - both
creative ball players who could help to call the plays. Farrell
has never really had a great 12 to partner him, and I think many
of his best England games at 10 were when Care was at 9, and at
12 he worked well with Ford, who would similarly call the plays.
>
> I would rather not see Faz at 10 without a creative 12, and I
don't see that we have one. He's successfully played 12 with
Ford and Sexton, and I think given time and a game plan that
other players could follow, he could form a productive
partnership with Smith. He isn't actually that different from
Andre when he plays 12 - not quite the carrying impact but still
a player with good distribution and kicking skills who can also
carry hard.
>
> The issue is whether he wants to run the show too much, and I
take a different view from most in that regard. The abiding
memory of "late stage Eddie" England is Smith running around
behind the line shouting at all and sundry to get into position,
while Faz was at 1st receiver - which suggests to me that the
issue was more with not having enough players who were on the
game plan than with their partnership.
>
--- End Quote ---
Style aside, Wilko delivered world class performance after world
class performance for England until his injury run. Farrell has
never, ever produced anything of that standard, let alone for
that length of time. Going on personal error count alone,
there's a gulf between them.
I am going to not think too much about the Esterhuizen
comparison. I can't imagine too many people would be with you on
that one, defensive approach aside.
#Post#: 111436--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who will be in Steve Borthwick's England squad
DIR By: Man From LA
Date: July 31, 2023, 2:52 pm
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--- Quote from: SwielOrNoSwiel link ---
>
> I really don’t get the Farrell hate, you only have to watch
the prem final to see how dominant he can be when played at 10
>
--- End Quote ---
I really don’t get the Farrell love-in, you only have to watch
him in an England game to see how average he can be when played
at 10.
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