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#Post#: 109611--------------------------------------------------
Re: I Asked ChatGPT How to evade the salary cap
DIR By: deadlyfrom5yardsout
Date: June 1, 2023, 3:36 am
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Wow! Truly impressive list of people I've never heard of!
#Post#: 109612--------------------------------------------------
Re: I Asked ChatGPT How to evade the salary cap
DIR By: Donuts
Date: June 1, 2023, 3:39 am
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Saracens
Likely excluded players: Maro Itoje and Owen Farrell
An understandably sensitive entry is, despite the inevitable
wise-cracks, among the most straightforward.
Tim Swinson had initially planned to retire in 2021, so finding
a burly foil for Maro Itoje at lock, with Joel Kpoku gone, was a
priority for last season. In Hugh Tizard, they have plucked one
of the most promising talents in the Premiership from Harlequins
to fulfil this role. The deal was confirmed in January and
Saracens supporters will have been purring ever since.
Hugh Tizard
Hugh Tizard enjoyed an exceptional farewell season for
Harlequins CREDIT: Getty Images
Swinson’s delayed exit from the game came amid other difficult
departures – but there was logic behind each one. Popular
loosehead prop Richard Barrington, now at Agen, had been usurped
by Eroni Mawi as Mako Vunipola’s deputy, for instance. Ralph
Adams-Hale is coming on strong, too.
Speaking of the Vunipolas, they were up for renewal this year
and settled for reduced terms to keep alive their England
prospects. That, however, made it tougher to retain Vincent
Koch. At the time, a source close to the negotiations told
Telegraph Sport that Saracens “did all they could to keep him”
but “could not get near” what Wasps put in front of the World
Cup-winner.
Subsequently, two more tightheads have been acquired. Christian
Judge embarks on a second stint at the club following periods
with Bath and Worcester. Eduardo Bello of Argentina also joins
Italy international Marco Riccioni, who ruptured his anterior
cruciate ligament after a brilliant start to the 2021-22
campaign, and Sam Wainwright.
It would be interesting to know how close the combined salaries
of Judge and Bello are to what Koch was earning. Wainwright,
captured from RGC in North Wales, underlined the influence of
scrum guru Ian Peel with his robust set-piece against the
Springboks in July. As the development of players such as Theo
McFarland shows, Saracens back their coaches to polish rough
diamonds.
A pinch-point is on the horizon, though. A number of players
have ‘plus one’ options on Covid contracts that count at 75 per
cent towards the cap. If those are not renewed, Saracens will
have far less space for 2023-24. Stars out of contract at the
end of the season include Jamie George, Alex Goode, Elliot Daly,
Max Malins and Ben Earl. The first two are club legends, yet
could cash in heavily abroad.
from a two part salary cap review in the Telegraph
HTML https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2022/08/23/premiership-salary-cap-special-report-part-two-clubs-squad-building/
HTML https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2022/08/22/premiership-salary-cap-special-report-every-clubs-squad-building/
#Post#: 109614--------------------------------------------------
Re: I Asked ChatGPT How to evade the salary cap
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: June 1, 2023, 3:44 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Ah good, we're back to pretending someone like Duncan Taylor is
"home grown from the academy" and not someone who was playing
pro rugby for another team before Saracens signed him straight
into the first team.
As for not being out of whack, don't be silly. Just look at the
two final squads.
Saracens:
Mawi (22 caps)
George (77 caps + 4 Lions)
Riccioni (21 caps)
Itoje (67 caps + 6 Lions)
Tizard (0 caps)
Isiekwe (12 caps)
Earl (15 caps)
Wray (0 caps)
van Zyl (6 caps)
Farrell (90 caps + 6 Lions)
Maitland (48 caps)
Tompkins (27 caps)
Lozowski (5 caps)
Malins (18 caps)
Goode (14 caps)
Dan (0)
Hislop (0)
Judge (0)
Hunter-Hill (0)
Knight (0)
Davies (22 caps)
Taylor (26 caps)
Daly (58 caps + 6 Lions)
Sale:
Macintyre (0)
van der Merwe (3)
Schonert (0)
JL du Preez (13)
Hill (21)
T Curry (46 + 3 Lions)
Dugdale (0)
Ross (0)
Warr (0)
Ford (84)
Reed (0)
Tuilagi (31)
R du Preez (1)
Roebuck (0)
Carpenter (0)
Ashman (7)
Rodd (3)
Oosthuizen (19)
Beaumont (0)
Ellis (0)
Quirke (2)
S James (0)
O'Flaherty (0)
So Saracens started with 13 internationals with 422 caps on the
field (plus another 16 for the Lions) and another 3
internationals with 106 caps on the bench (+6 Lions). 2
uncapped starters, 5 uncapped on the bench.
Sale started with 7 internationals with 199 caps on the field
(plus another 3 for the Lions) and another 4 internationals with
31 caps on the bench. 8 uncapped starters, 4 uncapped on the
bench.
But of course, both sides were missing important players who
would've been very likely to start (so not Saracens' lesser
capped players like Ruben de Haas, Pifileti, Christie, Hougaard
- and ignoring McFarland, too - although they all make the point
about the wider squad and the sheer number of internationals)
Saracens should've been able to call upon Billy Vunipola (66
caps) and Mako Vunipola (70 caps + 6 Lions). Sale were missing
Ben Curry (5 caps) and Dan du Preez (6 caps).
Spot the difference.
#Post#: 109615--------------------------------------------------
Re: I Asked ChatGPT How to evade the salary cap
DIR By: Quinspirational
Date: June 1, 2023, 3:45 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Marsile link ---
>
>
> Jamie George
> Jackson Wray
> Theo Dan
> Maro Itoje
> Max Malins
> Nick Tompkins
> Ben Earl
> Kapeli Pifeleti
> Duncan Taylor
> Owen Farrell
> Rotimi Segun
> Alex Goode
> Sam Crean
> Ralph Adams-Hale
> Theo Knight
> Andy Christie
> Manu Vunipola
> Josh Hallett
> Toby Knight
> Oliver Stoneham
> Dom Morris
> Ben Harris
>
>
> And still in the senior academy;
>
> Harvey Beaton
> Jevaughn Warren
> Tristan Smith
> James Isaacs
> Samson Adejimi
> Kaden Pearce-Paul
> Max Eke
> Obinna Nkwocha
> Alex Wardell
> Nathan Michelow
> Charlie Bracken
> Sam Brian
> Brandon Jackson
> Jenson Mcnulty
> Olly Hartley
> Oscar Wilson
> Charlie Reynolds-West
> Francis Moore
> Tobias Elliott
>
--- End Quote ---
Really good research Marsil, taking out the current academy
players and starting at the bottom of your list - Ben Harris
London Irish then England 7s then Sarries, hardly an academy
product. Do your homework properly.
#Post#: 109618--------------------------------------------------
Re: I Asked ChatGPT How to evade the salary cap
DIR By: deadlyfrom5yardsout
Date: June 1, 2023, 4:36 am
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Matey Always Railing, Still Illegal Looking
#Post#: 109621--------------------------------------------------
Re: I Asked ChatGPT How to evade the salary cap
DIR By: poorfour
Date: June 1, 2023, 4:59 am
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--- Quote from: Donuts link ---
>
> Speaking of the Vunipolas, they were up for renewal this year
and settled for reduced terms to keep alive their England
prospects. That, however, made it tougher to retain Vincent
Koch. At the time, a source close to the negotiations told
Telegraph Sport that Saracens “did all they could to keep him”
but “could not get near” what Wasps put in front of the World
Cup-winner.
>
> ...
>
> A pinch-point is on the horizon, though. A number of players
have ‘plus one’ options on Covid contracts that count at 75 per
cent towards the cap. If those are not renewed, Saracens will
have far less space for 2023-24. Stars out of contract at the
end of the season include Jamie George, Alex Goode, Elliot Daly,
Max Malins and Ben Earl. The first two are club legends, yet
could cash in heavily abroad.
>
--- End Quote ---
Sadly, as it turns out, neither could Wasps get close to what
they offered Koch.
That last paragraph is the crux of it for me. As early COVID
deals expire, will Saracens be able to keep that squad together?
I think we need to see a generation of players come through at a
time when we can be fairly confident they are within the cap
before we can have any real comfort that they are succeeding on
the quality of coaching and player development rather than
benefitting from the overhang of what many inside the game
strongly suspect was nearly a decade of cheating the cap.
#Post#: 109627--------------------------------------------------
Re: I Asked ChatGPT How to evade the salary cap
DIR By: Yareet
Date: June 1, 2023, 6:45 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> Ah good, we're back to pretending someone like Duncan Taylor
is "home grown from the academy" and not someone who was playing
pro rugby for another team before Saracens signed him straight
into the first team.
>
> As for not being out of whack, don't be silly. Just look at
the two final squads.
>
> Saracens:
>
> Mawi (22 caps)
> George (77 caps + 4 Lions)
> Riccioni (21 caps)
> Itoje (67 caps + 6 Lions)
> Tizard (0 caps)
> Isiekwe (12 caps)
> Earl (15 caps)
> Wray (0 caps)
> van Zyl (6 caps)
> Farrell (90 caps + 6 Lions)
> Maitland (48 caps)
> Tompkins (27 caps)
> Lozowski (5 caps)
> Malins (18 caps)
> Goode (14 caps)
>
> Dan (0)
> Hislop (0)
> Judge (0)
> Hunter-Hill (0)
> Knight (0)
> Davies (22 caps)
> Taylor (26 caps)
> Daly (58 caps + 6 Lions)
>
> Sale:
>
> Macintyre (0)
> van der Merwe (3)
> Schonert (0)
> JL du Preez (13)
> Hill (21)
> T Curry (46 + 3 Lions)
> Dugdale (0)
> Ross (0)
> Warr (0)
> Ford (84)
> Reed (0)
> Tuilagi (31)
> R du Preez (1)
> Roebuck (0)
> Carpenter (0)
>
> Ashman (7)
> Rodd (3)
> Oosthuizen (19)
> Beaumont (0)
> Ellis (0)
> Quirke (2)
> S James (0)
> O'Flaherty (0)
>
> So Saracens started with 13 internationals with 422 caps on
the field (plus another 16 for the Lions) and another 3
internationals with 106 caps on the bench (+6 Lions). 2
uncapped starters, 5 uncapped on the bench.
>
> Sale started with 7 internationals with 199 caps on the field
(plus another 3 for the Lions) and another 4 internationals with
31 caps on the bench. 8 uncapped starters, 4 uncapped on the
bench.
>
> But of course, both sides were missing important players who
would've been very likely to start (so not Saracens' lesser
capped players like Ruben de Haas, Pifileti, Christie, Hougaard
- and ignoring McFarland, too - although they all make the point
about the wider squad and the sheer number of internationals)
>
> Saracens should've been able to call upon Billy Vunipola (66
caps) and Mako Vunipola (70 caps + 6 Lions). Sale were missing
Ben Curry (5 caps) and Dan du Preez (6 caps).
>
> Spot the difference.
>
--- End Quote ---
<pendant alert> Small point but Coenie has 30 caps; not 19
</pedant alert>
#Post#: 109628--------------------------------------------------
Re: I Asked ChatGPT How to evade the salary cap
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: June 1, 2023, 6:56 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Thanks - I tried to be consistent with sources. Wiki is the
worst, they think he has one cap. Was tricky with some of the
southern hemisphere guys matching it up.
#Post#: 109634--------------------------------------------------
Re: I Asked ChatGPT How to evade the salary cap
DIR By: Marsile
Date: June 1, 2023, 8:41 am
---------------------------------------------------------
It does make me laugh how you work the conspiracy gymnastics to
conclude that a home grown player who goes on to play for his
academy club first team and then England somehow disadvantages
other clubs.
#Post#: 109637--------------------------------------------------
Re: I Asked ChatGPT How to evade the salary cap
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: June 1, 2023, 10:45 am
---------------------------------------------------------
It makes me laugh that you keep claiming players signed from
other teams as home grown, consistently ignore that Saracens are
an extreme outlier when it comes to international players, and
somehow can't grasp the idea that not only do Saracens keep hold
of almost all their big name but continually sign players that
rival clubs are very keen to keep hold of.
And that goes back some way. For every Jamie George, Maro Itoje,
or Alex Goode, there's a Billy Vunipola, Mako Vunipola, Sean
Maitland, Liam Williams, Alex Lozowski, Hugh Tizard, Elliot
Daly, Charlie Hodgson, Alex Lewington, David Strettle, Richard
Wigglesworth, etc, etc. Saracens have, quite incredibly, been
able to keep hold of the good home grown players, the
outstanding home grown players, the outstanding signings, all
while being in the hunt to sign some of the best talent from
other clubs. They've consistently been able to sign players like
this.
I remember the hissy fit you threw over Koch going to wasps -
the very idea that Saracens might not be able to afford to keep
whoever they wanted and sign whoever they wanted is so alien to
you and it's completely understandable why. I'm sure it's the
same with Malins - Bristol are willing to throw big money at him
and Saracens already have a hugely experienced Lions Test
player, a hugely experienced Scottish international and Lions
tourist, and a hugely experienced England international as the
options at 15, with two of those covering wing along with
Lewington before you even have to get to the "unsung" option of
guys like Segun (who is the sort of player every other team is
relying on to start)...
Given that it is stone cold fact that Saracens were massively
cheating the salary cap, there's zero benefit of the doubt
available for the team that just doesn't seem to have the same
issues as everyone else when it comes to keeping hold of players
or balancing the squad and the books.
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