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#Post#: 109752--------------------------------------------------
Re: I Asked ChatGPT How to evade the salary cap
DIR By: cstandhaft@btinternet.com
Date: June 5, 2023, 1:38 am
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--- Quote from: 22 Dropout link ---
>
> To be fair to I’m l’@rse, he hasn’t ever said that Saracens
are not breaching the salary cap. All he has said is that if
Saracens are, others might be as well and that you can’t draw
that conclusion just from trying to guess each players’
motivation for joining/staying.
>
> Indeed, Saracens might well have more left in the cap to play
with than other teams. You only have to look after 5 players
well to be able to persuade the rest of the squad to stay for a
normal wage. And if these 5 are being looked after in other
ways, the pressure on the club’s wage bill is lighter still.
>
> Unfortunately it looks like it is still going on. Saracens
were found guilty in Jan 2020 and Nigel Wray stepped back. In
March 2020, as the club contemplated how to retain talent in the
face of relegation something interesting happened. Owen A
Farrell Ltd did a share split and created a class of share that
could receive distributable profits. On 26th March those shares
were given to Euroblue Investments Limited – a Cyprus company
owned by Nigel Wray – a dividend was paid and Euroblue ceased to
be a shareholder later the same day. Euroblue Investments
Limited is also a shareholder in Saracens.
>
> What happened to that cash is speculation, but later that
year, Owen A Farrell Limited is acquired by A&L Ventures Ltd, of
which Owen Farrell is the sole director and which just happens
to be capitalised with the same amount as the dividend paid
through Cyprus. In April 20, Owen Farrell is appointed sole
director of a new company - Ancient and Loyal Limited – which
has £900k of assets and which again is owned by A&L Ventures.
That leaves him overseeing assets of £1.5m at the start of the
year and £3m at the end, whilst just paying £108k of tax.
>
> The key thing is, none of this was anything to do with
Saracens Ltd or a serving officer of Saracens, but it is
connected to Nigel Wray. Furthermore, it is all in the public
domain and there are other sizeable piles/transactions to view
involving other key players post March 2020.
>
> IMO I’m l’@rse is symptomatic of the problem at Saracens. Of
course he knows what is going on, but to admit it is to deny the
legitimacy of the trophies. The win at all costs culture has no
boundaries and, until we see the back of the characters involved
or real sanctions we are stuck with it for a few years’ to come.
I cannot see the latter. To do so would threaten to dismantle
the core of the current player and coaching setup for the
national squad, and would take courage. Not a quality to be
found in abundance at the RFU and completely absent at Saracens.
>
--- End Quote ---
I'm no expert but if this continues and the trend continues
Saracens will have no one left to play for the premiership
although I guess could ultimately end up in some sort of
European league...if you were to expel them. I guess at the
moment they could just buy another club for a pound!
#Post#: 109753--------------------------------------------------
Re: I Asked ChatGPT How to evade the salary cap
DIR By: Observer
Date: June 5, 2023, 2:38 am
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--- Quote from: Man From LA link ---
>
> There was a Salarycens fan ('Observer') who posted a handful
of times on here last year up until the Autumn, which is when
Marsile started posting. Coincidence? Hmmm
>
--- End Quote ---
Don't blame me... far to inaccurate. I'm reading the thread with
interest however I can confirm I am me and he or she isn't.
#Post#: 109754--------------------------------------------------
Re: I Asked ChatGPT How to evade the salary cap
DIR By: Fearless Fred
Date: June 5, 2023, 3:32 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Observer link ---
>
> Don't blame me... far to inaccurate. I'm reading the thread
with interest however I can confirm I am me and he or she isn't.
>
--- End Quote ---
I am the walrus.
#Post#: 109755--------------------------------------------------
Re: I Asked ChatGPT How to evade the salary cap
DIR By: Man From LA
Date: June 5, 2023, 3:40 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Observer link ---
>
> Don't blame me... far to inaccurate. I'm reading the thread
with interest however I can confirm I am me and he or she isn't.
>
--- End Quote ---
Fair enough.
#Post#: 109756--------------------------------------------------
Re: I Asked ChatGPT How to evade the salary cap
DIR By: Yareet
Date: June 5, 2023, 4:01 am
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--- Quote from: Quinky link ---
>
> Just a thought, but how would the following hypothetical
scenario play out, in terms of the salary cap?
>
> A very wealthy individual (let's call him Nigel in this
example) is a huge fan of a team - for example, Sale. The club
are struggling to retain players, so Nigel has an idea. He
approaches a few key players and offers them work for a large
amount of money. However, he makes it plain that this is
dependent upon them staying at the club. The outcome is that
Nigel, whilst being unconnected to Sale, can ensure that Sale
keep key players on a much lower salary than one might expect.
>
> Is it a way to get around the salary cap?
>
--- End Quote ---
My take is that is that there is no legal way to get round the
cap.
It seems to be an older version that is still published
(
HTML https://d2cx26qpfwuhvu.cloudfront.net/premier/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/09123413/Salary-Regulations-2021-22-Board-Approved-23.09.21.pdf)<br
/>but the two most pertinent clauses would seem to be:
A Participant shall notify the Salary Cap Director in writing as
soon as reasonably practicable after becoming aware of any
potential or actual loopholes, lacunae or errors in the
Regulations (2.5)
and
Each Player must as soon as reasonably practicable report to the
Salary Cap Director any breach or circumvention of the
Regulations of which they become aware, or any attempt to
do so (5.5)
So if any player becomes aware of a potential or actual
workaround, they are in breach unless they inform PRL.
Whether this happens is a different matter but my understanding
is that even if clubs are just being clever (rather than
outright lying) they are in breach.
#Post#: 109757--------------------------------------------------
Re: I Asked ChatGPT How to evade the salary cap
DIR By: Quinky
Date: June 5, 2023, 4:06 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Yareet link ---
>
> My take is that is that there is no legal way to get round the
cap.
>
> It seems to be an older version that is still published
(
HTML https://d2cx26qpfwuhvu.cloudfront.net/premier/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/09123413/Salary-Regulations-2021-22-Board-Approved-23.09.21.pdf)<br
/>but the two most pertinent clauses would seem to be:
>
> A Participant shall notify the Salary Cap Director in writing
as soon as reasonably practicable after becoming aware of any
potential or actual loopholes, lacunae or errors in the
Regulations (2.5)
>
> and
>
> Each Player must as soon as reasonably practicable report to
the Salary Cap Director any breach or circumvention of the
Regulations of which they become aware, or any attempt to
> do so (5.5)
>
> So if any player becomes aware of a potential or actual
workaround, they are in breach unless they inform PRL.
>
> Whether this happens is a different matter but my
understanding is that even if clubs are just being clever
(rather than outright lying) they are in breach.
>
>
--- End Quote ---
And that's fine, if the participants are honourable and hones.
But in my hypothetical example, "Nigel" could say at the
player's contract negotiations, something like "My company will
happily pay you £500k over the next tw seasons to appear as a
Saracens Sale player... it would be so sad if you felt the
clubs offer of £300k per year isn't enough, and you went
elsewhere for £400k... Because of course my company wouldn't
then be able to offer you the same." And of course the parties
involved mught be smart enough to just keep schtum about the
whole arrangement anyway.
#Post#: 109758--------------------------------------------------
Re: I Asked ChatGPT How to evade the salary cap
DIR By: Man From LA
Date: June 5, 2023, 4:07 am
---------------------------------------------------------
This from The Heil in 2021 re the Wray/Farrell investment thing:
'The club insist that they have done nothing wrong. They say the
investment — despite its listing date of March 26 last year —
was actually made before any sanctions were placed on them and
add that Premiership Rugby’s salary cap director approved the
payment.
Premiership Rugby confirmed the final point and offered no
further comment.'
So going by that, PR and their salary cap director are fine with
it.
#Post#: 109763--------------------------------------------------
Re: I Asked ChatGPT How to evade the salary cap
DIR By: Yareet
Date: June 5, 2023, 6:40 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Quinky link ---
>
> And that's fine, if the participants are honourable and hones.
But in my hypothetical example, "Nigel" could say at the
player's contract negotiations, something like "My company will
happily pay you £500k over the next tw seasons to appear as a
Saracens Sale player... it would be so sad if you felt the
clubs offer of £300k per year isn't enough, and you went
elsewhere for £400k... Because of course my company wouldn't
then be able to offer you the same." And of course the parties
involved mught be smart enough to just keep schtum about the
whole arrangement anyway.
>
--- End Quote ---
Sorry I wasn't clear. Your question is whether the scheme you
outlined is a way to get round the cap. My answer is a
long-winded way of saying that (IMO) there is no legal way to
get round the cap.
#Post#: 109764--------------------------------------------------
Re: I Asked ChatGPT How to evade the salary cap
DIR By: Quinky
Date: June 5, 2023, 7:23 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Yareet link ---
>
> Sorry I wasn't clear. Your question is whether the scheme you
outlined is a way to get round the cap. My answer is a
long-winded way of saying that (IMO) there is no legal way to
get round the cap.
>
--- End Quote ---
And that's the issue, I think. In terms of getting around the
cap, it's contrary to the rules. However, I can't see that it's
illegal. Happy to be corrected though.
#Post#: 109765--------------------------------------------------
Re: I Asked ChatGPT How to evade the salary cap
DIR By: 22 Dropout
Date: June 5, 2023, 7:38 am
---------------------------------------------------------
26th March screams "let's do it this tax year" - or in Sarrie's
case this "fine" year. It's a simple decision for people with no
ethics - bury retention and future payments fees in the bucket
of "past" indiscretions quickly as the fine is going to remain
the same.
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