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#Post#: 109278--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: BaaBass v World XV
DIR By: poorfour
Date: May 24, 2023, 10:25 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Quinky link ---
>
> How is it harmful?
>
--- End Quote ---
I'm genuinely shocked that a quarter of the way through the 21st
century someone has to spell this out for you, but let me try an
analogy.
I'm left handed. When I was growing up, the worst I had to face
was having to learn how to use right handed scissors and can
openers, and my mum - with the best of intentions - buying me a
left-handed italic pen for school that actively prevented me
from producing nicely formed letters because it was designed for
one sort of left hander and I am the other sort.
These were minor inconveniences, and I mostly celebrated being a
little bit different from the norm.
However, if I had been born a couple of decades earlier, or in
the wrong part of the world, I would have been told that my left
handedness was evil and wrong, and probably been forced to write
with my right hand (and then probably beaten or chastised for
either slipping back into left hand use or having crappy right
handed handwriting).
I've read accounts and even met a couple of people who lived
through that. It left significant mental scars. It's even
thought that George VI was left handed (he used to play tennis
with the rcquet in his left hand, for example) and that being
forced to write with his right hand contributed to his famous
stutter.
All of this was - and is, because it still happens - completely
unnecessary. Being left handed is part of who someone is and not
something they can easily change. At best, they can train
themselves to be competent with their right hand, but that's
best done voluntarily.
Being LGBTQ is similarly something that we are increasingly sure
people are born with. It's a part of who they are. But many of
them struggle with accepting that because of social stigma
against it, especially those raised in religious communities.
For people who've been indoctrinated to believe from an early
age, being told that they are going to burn in hell is hugely
damaging because it creates something they can't reconcile:
their faith tells them they must be one thing, but their bodies
and brains tell them that they are something else.
It's less bad if you've been raised in a non-religious culture,
but there are still plenty of bigots around and public figures
making statements like Folau did gives them licence to continue
to discriminate and persecute.
We've made a lot of progress even in my lifetime. I grew up
during the peak of the AIDS crisis and at the time I barely
understood what it meant to be LGBTQ because it was largely
invisible in the media.
Today, my kids have gay, bi and trans friends and are for the
most part matter of fact about it, which is great - though it
didn't stop one of them asking if I would reject them if they
turned out to be gay. Why should they have to worry about that?
Why should it not be OK for them to be who they are, whomever
that may be?
The longer we allow people like Folau to make statements like
that and let them stand, the longer we perpetuate an environment
for a vulnerable minority where they fear discrimination.
#Post#: 109279--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: BaaBass v World XV
DIR By: #495
Date: May 24, 2023, 10:30 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Quinky link ---
>
> He doesn't speak for "large parts of the world". He speaks for
himself.
>
> And it seems there are a lot of people who seem to hate Folau.
>
--- End Quote ---
I think the crux of it is that he outed himself as a massive
homophobe when he didn't have to - therefore by voluntarily
putting his views out there and knowing they will offend more
people than just those he's targeted, he's fair game for people
to debate. Given virtually none of the rugby public know him
personally they will inevitably conflate Folau the rugby player
with Folau the homophobe, as they are the only two things he's
really known for. I don't think he (or you) can complain too
much about that. Some of those same people may also wonder why
in the 21st century anyone would hold views derived from what
they believe is essentially a fairy story. I think we know
there are plenty of other religious players who may agree with
him, they've just done a better job of keeping it to themselves.
Maybe you do think homophobia is a huge problem. Maybe you
don't. Either way, some people will arguably put it on the same
level as racism, sexism, anti-semitism etc etc. Therefore if a
rugby player came out and proudly announced their racism online
by stating that they believed all people of a certain race
should burn in hell....then how can't you expect that to follow
you around for as long as you're in the public eye?
#Post#: 109280--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: BaaBass v World XV
DIR By: Quinky
Date: May 24, 2023, 10:34 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: poorfour link ---
>
> I'm genuinely shocked that a quarter of the way through the
21st century someone has to spell this out for you, but let me
try an analogy.
>
> I'm left handed. When I was growing up, the worst I had to
face was having to learn how to use right handed scissors and
can openers, and my mum - with the best of intentions - buying
me a left-handed italic pen for school that actively prevented
me from producing nicely formed letters because it was designed
for one sort of left hander and I am the other sort.
>
> These were minor inconveniences, and I mostly celebrated being
a little bit different from the norm.
>
> However, if I had been born a couple of decades earlier, or in
the wrong part of the world, I would have been told that my left
handedness was evil and wrong, and probably been forced to write
with my right hand (and then probably beaten or chastised for
either slipping back into left hand use or having crappy right
handed handwriting).
>
> I've read accounts and even met a couple of people who lived
through that. It left significant mental scars. It's even
thought that George VI was left handed (he used to play tennis
with the rcquet in his left hand, for example) and that being
forced to write with his right hand contributed to his famous
stutter.
>
> All of this was - and is, because it still happens -
completely unnecessary. Being left handed is part of who someone
is and not something they can easily change. At best, they can
train themselves to be competent with their right hand, but
that's best done voluntarily.
>
> Being LGBTQ is similarly something that we are increasingly
sure people are born with. It's a part of who they are. But many
of them struggle with accepting that because of social stigma
against it, especially those raised in religious communities.
For people who've been indoctrinated to believe from an early
age, being told that they are going to burn in hell is hugely
damaging because it creates something they can't reconcile:
their faith tells them they must be one thing, but their bodies
and brains tell them that they are something else.
>
> It's less bad if you've been raised in a non-religious
culture, but there are still plenty of bigots around and public
figures making statements like Folau did gives them licence to
continue to discriminate and persecute.
>
> We've made a lot of progress even in my lifetime. I grew up
during the peak of the AIDS crisis and at the time I barely
understood what it meant to be LGBTQ because it was largely
invisible in the media.
>
> Today, my kids have gay, bi and trans friends and are for the
most part matter of fact about it, which is great - though it
didn't stop one of them asking if I would reject them if they
turned out to be gay. Why should they have to worry about that?
Why should it not be OK for them to be who they are, whomever
that may be?
>
> The longer we allow people like Folau to make statements like
that and let them stand, the longer we perpetuate an environment
for a vulnerable minority where they fear discrimination.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thanks for the lecture. But it bears no relevance.
Folau is stating his beliefs. He's not calling for people to be
persecuted or discriminated against. He's stating what he
believes is God's word. That's all.
#Post#: 109281--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: BaaBass v World XV
DIR By: Quinky
Date: May 24, 2023, 10:34 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Quanks link ---
>
> I said he's a reminder that large parts of the world hate gay
people, not that he speaks for large parts of the world. That's
clearly two different things.
>
> I'm not sure I even follow what your second point is, but
posting dumb sh*t on Instagram is a choice, being gay isn't.
>
--- End Quote ---
No, you clearly don't.
#Post#: 109289--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: BaaBass v World XV
DIR By: Mayor West
Date: May 24, 2023, 3:27 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I think the game should be an opportunity for all the people who
wish to express their feelings about what he said to make it
clear to him that it was wrong. I hope that they turn up and
wave flags and banners of rainbows. I would like the LGBTQ
community to turn up in droves to spite him and the rest of the
crowd can welcome them without prejudice .
There may have been some forgiveness if he had apologised
and accepted that he and his religion is wrong and needs to move
forward into the modern world.
I’m probably going to upset loads of people now but this
situation is why I don’t like religions very much and can’t
understand why people are gullible enough to go along with them.
Generally, fascism is an unwelcome movement yet many religions
are acceptable.
#Post#: 109290--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: BaaBass v World XV
DIR By: poorfour
Date: May 24, 2023, 3:50 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Quinky link ---
>
> Thanks for the lecture. But it bears no relevance.
>
> Folau is stating his beliefs. He's not calling for people to
be persecuted or discriminated against. He's stating what he
believes is God's word. That's all.
>
--- End Quote ---
That’s not all if what he says has negative consequences for
innocent people.
What he has stated is likely to cause direct distress to people
who are struggling to reconcile their faith and their sexuality,
and other people will see it as a justification to persecute
others.
He’s entitled to his belief. But if he puts them out on a public
platform then he (and his supporters) have no right to object to
others expressing their distaste for them.
#Post#: 109295--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: BaaBass v World XV
DIR By: never sleep
Date: May 24, 2023, 4:20 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Quinky link ---
>
> He's stating what he believes is God's word. That's all.
>
--- End Quote ---
That is all fair and well, but, he wasn't quoting God's word was
he?
He was repeating something from a translation of a letter
written by a Roman dude.
#Post#: 109301--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: BaaBass v World XV
DIR By: deadlyfrom5yardsout
Date: May 25, 2023, 3:21 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Folau is a very naughty boy.
#Post#: 109306--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: BaaBass v World XV
DIR By: Quinky
Date: May 25, 2023, 5:04 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: never sleep link ---
>
> That is all fair and well, but, he wasn't quoting God's word
was he?
> He was repeating something from a translation of a letter
written by a Roman dude.
>
--- End Quote ---
Interesting logic. So what exactly did his God say?
#Post#: 109307--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: BaaBass v World XV
DIR By: Quinky
Date: May 25, 2023, 5:06 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: poorfour link ---
>
> That’s not all if what he says has negative consequences for
innocent people.
>
> What he has stated is likely to cause direct distress to
people who are struggling to reconcile their faith and their
sexuality, and other people will see it as a justification to
persecute others.
>
> He’s entitled to his belief. But if he puts them out on a
public platform then he (and his supporters) have no right to
object to others expressing their distaste for them.
>
--- End Quote ---
I always laugh at this approach. He's not justifyng anyone
persecuting anyone else. And if people get distressed by his
words, then where do you draw the line? I may get distressed at
your post - will you apologise profusely and promise never to
post again?
There's a much simpler approach of course - if people don't like
his words, then just don't listen to them.
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