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       #Post#: 108660--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Are we losing a coach?
   DIR By: Quinky
       Date: May 10, 2023, 5:22 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       It's also easy to extrapolate from stats to support your
       position. Winning 3 from 12 in the league is poor, agreed. Prior
       to that we were 6 from 8, which nobody would be unhappy about.
       Apart from the same people who choose to highlight 3 from 12...
       And what defines success? Winning the final? If so, then 10
       teams fail every season. Getting to the playoffs? Then we've had
       a few successful seasons recently. Merely performing better in
       the competition? If so, we've effectively succeeded in Europe
       this season.
       Or is it merely that some people will always look for a reason
       to criticise the club, regardless of whether it's justified?
       #Post#: 108668--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Are we losing a coach?
   DIR By: JammyGit
       Date: May 10, 2023, 6:58 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: Thegp link ---
       >
       > It bewilders me that people are so accepting of failure. Nice
       guy I’m sure but we’re slowly getting worse each year.
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       I don't see how we can be "slowly getting worse each year" when
       last year we came 3rd and the year before we came 4th (but won
       the playoffs+final).
       Here's how it's been for the last 6 seasons:
       --- Quote ---
       > 17-18: 10th, 7 wins. 479 for, 640 against, 58 tries / 78
       conceded, 36pts
       > 18-19: 5th, 10 wins. 544/528, 63/56, 56 pts
       > 19-20: 6th, 10 wins. 517/560, 63/63, 51pts
       > 20-21: 4th, 13 wins. 703/564, 89/77, 71pts + champions
       > 21-22: 3rd, 15 wins. 647/554, 95/68, 80pts. out in SF to
       Saracens
       > 22-23: 6th, 9 wins.  546/551, 78/75, 51pts.
       --- End Quote ---
       + we also did better this season in Europe than we did last
       season
       It's been a mediocre season but it's not any sort of pattern.
       There's been so much disruption - we've missed most of our
       backrow for a big chunk of the season, plus Marcus & Marchant;
       Lewies has barely featured, Lynagh's been out for most of it,
       and Green picked up a season ender early on. I don't think it's
       a huge surprise we've struggled to finish off chances and put
       teams away.
       If you look at the teams who did better than us... most of them
       are pretty much unaffected by callups and haven't had injury
       runs.
       #Post#: 108677--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Are we losing a coach?
   DIR By: never sleep
       Date: May 10, 2023, 8:45 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
       >
       > I don't see how we can be "slowly getting worse each year"
       when last year we came 3rd and the year before we came 4th (but
       won the playoffs+final).
       >
       > Here's how it's been for the last 6 seasons:
       >
       > + we also did better this season in Europe than we did last
       season
       >
       > It's been a mediocre season but it's not any sort of pattern.
       There's been so much disruption - we've missed most of our
       backrow for a big chunk of the season, plus Marcus & Marchant;
       Lewies has barely featured, Lynagh's been out for most of it,
       and Green picked up a season ender early on. I don't think it's
       a huge surprise we've struggled to finish off chances and put
       teams away.
       >
       > If you look at the teams who did better than us... most of
       them are pretty much unaffected by callups and haven't had
       injury runs.
       >
       >
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       One point to note Jammy
       On the total points per season, it should be noted that there
       would be an expectation to earn more points in a 13 team league
       than there would be in an 11 team league.
       So, it should show the points as 51 points out of a possible 100
       points or 80/110, etc.
       This season, we scored fewer points as we were not able to play
       against 2 of the mid/lower table teams.
       10% of our games this season has been against Sarries.
       Last season it was around 9%.
       It was 0% the season before.
       As they say, there are lies, damn lies . . . . .
       #Post#: 108678--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Are we losing a coach?
   DIR By: poorfour
       Date: May 10, 2023, 8:48 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: never sleep link ---
       >
       > As they say, there are lies, damn lies . . . . .
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       ...and submissions to the Salary Cap auditor. Allegedly.
       #Post#: 108680--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Are we losing a coach?
   DIR By: JammyGit
       Date: May 10, 2023, 9:33 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: never sleep link ---
       >
       > One point to note Jammy
       > On the total points per season, it should be noted that there
       would be an expectation to earn more points in a 13 team league
       than there would be in an 11 team league.
       > So, it should show the points as 51 points out of a possible
       100 points or 80/110, etc.
       >
       > This season, we scored fewer points as we were not able to
       play against 2 of the mid/lower table teams.
       > 10% of our games this season has been against Sarries.
       > Last season it was around 9%.
       > It was 0% the season before.
       >
       > As they say, there are lies, damn lies . . . . .
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       Thanks, I hadn't thought of that.
       #Post#: 108681--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Are we losing a coach?
   DIR By: KentQuin
       Date: May 10, 2023, 11:06 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: never sleep link ---
       >
       > I honestly don't know what team you have been watching.
       > During the JK era, I watched people leaving the Stoop in
       droves and booing at the end of games.
       > During the Gustard era we watched 80 minute bore-fests.
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       Couldn't agree more. What made the second half of the 2020/21
       season and the majority of the 2021/22 season so enjoyable was
       the style of play. "Success" is so much broader than just
       winning and it's relative based on the starting point.
       Judging Tabs on this critera, third in his first season was a
       decent effort having finished fourth the year before and there
       are mitigating factors for us falling short this year. And we
       continue to play attractive rugby. He certainly deserves another
       season at the helm and I'm more optimistic then pessimistic of
       our chances of bouncing back into the playoffs.
       If we're just looking at results, then it's only really Sarries
       and Exeter who have been consistently better than us, and of
       course one of those benefited from financial doping. The reality
       is we're in the following pack with Tigers, Sale and Saints.
       To me, success in the medium team would be us consistently
       making top 4 and European quarters.
       #Post#: 108687--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Are we losing a coach?
   DIR By: poorfour
       Date: May 10, 2023, 1:11 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: Thegp link ---
       >
       > It bewilders me that people are so accepting of failure. Nice
       guy I’m sure but we’re slowly getting worse each year.
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       Accepting of failure, or realistic about competition? There are
       10 other teams out there, all trying to win the same things
       Quins are.
       The difference between success and failure in a single match can
       be as small as a ref failing to call a tackle off the ball or
       check an obvious forward pass, or a miscommunication at the
       lineout, or a poor pass with the try line open.
       And the difference between 6th and 3rd or 4th is one or two
       games.
       Expecting a squad to make the playoffs every year is failing to
       acknowledge that there are other teams out there (mostly)
       working within the same salary cap and trying equally hard to do
       the same.
       A season when we have, for extended periods of time, not been
       able to call on one of our coaches and regular members of our
       XXIII at 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 13, 14 and 15 is not one where we
       can expect to be all conquering.
       #Post#: 108689--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Are we losing a coach?
   DIR By: Thegp
       Date: May 10, 2023, 2:05 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Every team has injuries and players unavailable. It’s amazing
       how many excuses you can make!
       We’re going backwards. We won the league. Then we made the
       semis. This year we’ve been in bottom 4 form second half of the
       season. Gustard and Kingston would have been crucified for this.
       We’ll see next season but if you expect some of us fans who are
       paying well over the odds now to shrug our shoulders at
       mediocrity then no.
       #Post#: 108691--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Are we losing a coach?
   DIR By: Fursty
       Date: May 10, 2023, 2:53 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       We also lost 2 games directly as a result of awful refereeing
       decisions in the 80th minute, another 6 points would have put a
       very different complexion on the season.
       #Post#: 108692--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Are we losing a coach?
   DIR By: poorfour
       Date: May 10, 2023, 3:26 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: Thegp link ---
       >
       > We’ll see next season but if you expect some of us fans who
       are paying well over the odds now to shrug our shoulders at
       mediocrity then no.
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       Well, I certainly expect you to moan about it, but if you feel
       like voting with your feet I doubt many folks here or at the
       club itself would shed a tear.
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