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#Post#: 106203--------------------------------------------------
Re: Rugby is dead - red card
DIR By: deadlyfrom5yardsout
Date: March 23, 2023, 2:34 am
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I was watching Highlanders play Western Force yesterday and
there was a tip tackle incident which was definitely foul play
but the officials were undecided to go yellow or red. The option
they took was to bin the offender and call for an "off field
review" while the player was in the bin as to elevating it to a
red card. Never seen that before.
#Post#: 106206--------------------------------------------------
Re: Rugby is dead - red card
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: March 23, 2023, 3:35 am
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--- Quote from: Seequin link ---
>
> Good decision.
> The mitigation appears to be the late change of position by
Keenan who dropped to pick up the ball on the ground from the
forward pass.
> I think common sense has prevailed.
>
--- End Quote ---
This bit confuses me. If Keenan hadn't dipped as much, he'd have
just been shouldered in the head instead.
Basically my issue with this is:
i) Keenan was not doing anything unexpected
ii) Steward was not shaping for a tackle
iii) Mitigation due to a drop in body height makes sense in the
context of a tackle going from legal to illegal
iv) This wasn't a tackle and would've been a shoulder charge if
Keenan had been less stooped
#Post#: 106213--------------------------------------------------
Re: Rugby is dead - red card
DIR By: never sleep
Date: March 23, 2023, 4:32 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: deadlyfrom5yardsout link ---
>
> I was watching Highlanders play Western Force yesterday and
there was a tip tackle incident which was definitely foul play
but the officials were undecided to go yellow or red. The option
they took was to bin the offender and call for an "off field
review" while the player was in the bin as to elevating it to a
red card. Never seen that before.
>
--- End Quote ---
I am pretty sure that this is a new law being trialled in this
year's tournament.
The idea is that:
1. it speeds up the game
2. it takes the pressure off the ref (who could be influenced by
the crowd in the stadium)
3. it gives the tmo time to get all available angles
It will be interesting to see if it works
#Post#: 106217--------------------------------------------------
Re: Rugby is dead - red card
DIR By: #495
Date: March 23, 2023, 4:49 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> This bit confuses me. If Keenan hadn't dipped as much, he'd
have just been shouldered in the head instead.
>
> Basically my issue with this is:
>
> i) Keenan was not doing anything unexpected
> ii) Steward was not shaping for a tackle
> iii) Mitigation due to a drop in body height makes sense in
the context of a tackle going from legal to illegal
> iv) This wasn't a tackle and would've been a shoulder charge
if Keenan had been less stooped
>
--- End Quote ---
i) Apart from diving on a pass that was already whistled as
forward, which....
ii) put him a couple of yards nearer Steward at the point of
collecting the loose ball that Steward equally had the right to
go for
iii) Keenan also leads with his head, something you're taught
not to do from age-grade - not just because of knocking yourself
out, but because you probably don't want to break your neck
either
iv) relative forward momentum of both players needs to be
considered before determining if there is a shoulder "charge"
#Post#: 106219--------------------------------------------------
Re: Rugby is dead - red card
DIR By: poorfour
Date: March 23, 2023, 4:56 am
---------------------------------------------------------
If Keenan hadn't dipped as much, Steward may well have been able
to complete a legal tackle.
i) I think you have to look at the build up to the incident in
total. The combination of a dropped, forward pass and a player
who (in the eyes of several pundits) looked like he was shaping
to kick it before choosing to stoop to pick it up is unexpected.
Those things do not happen in the normal course of events. Maybe
the difference is between "unexpected" and "unanticipated".
Seeing the situation in total, Keenan's movements are what you
might have expected from a player of his ability. In real time,
it would be very hard to anticipate. Bear in mind as well that
Steward would not have seen the ball until it bounced past the
defenders in front of him, so he had less time to see and react
to what was happening than Keenan.
ii) Agreed. He was shaping to absorb the impact. He didn't do a
very good job of it, but this was a player seeing that he
couldn't make a legal tackle and trying to find an alternative.
iii) This is where the panel felt the match officials went
wrong. The match officials applied the framework under 9.13 and
reached the correct decision if Steward had been trying to make
a tackle. The panel felt he was not trying to tackle but had not
done all he could to protect Keenan in the collision, hence a YC
under 9.11
iv) Yes, it wasn't a tackle. No, it wasn't a shoulder charge,
because Steward was turning away and wasn't dropping the
shoulder into the tackle. He also didn't raise his elbow into
the contact.
We're not going to agree on this, and it's clearly one of
rugby's least clear cut incidents given the wide variety of
responses from officals, pundits and fans, but the importance of
the debate is to find the balance point between protecting
players and accepting that in a high speed, contact sport
incidents will still happen.
In the round, this game did not find that balance and didn't
even find a consistent skew given what was penalised and what
was missed
#Post#: 106237--------------------------------------------------
Re: Rugby is dead - red card
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: March 23, 2023, 10:23 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: #495 link ---
>
> i) Apart from diving on a pass that was already whistled as
forward, which....
> ii) put him a couple of yards nearer Steward at the point of
collecting the loose ball that Steward equally had the right to
go for
> iii) Keenan also leads with his head, something you're taught
not to do from age-grade - not just because of knocking yourself
out, but because you probably don't want to break your neck
either
> iv) relative forward momentum of both players needs to be
considered before determining if there is a shoulder "charge"
>
--- End Quote ---
i) That's not correct. He didn't dive on a pass. He stooped to
collect it as part of his run, that's all.
ii) Steward was nowhere near at this time. The ball bounced very
close to Keenan, who was after all the intended recipient. If
Steward was going for the ball he made a huge error of judgement
as he was never going to beat Keenan to it, and he would've
known this from some distance away.
iii) Keenan "leads with the head" because he stooped to collect
the ball and was straightening when he got clattered. He didn't
choose to run into contact like this. He was forced to stoop to
collect the ball. Very much blaming the victim here!
iv) I agree. Steward was running into contact and wasn't
passively trying to absorb contact.
Poorfour - it wasn't a shoulder charge because he didn't make
contact with the shoulder. If Keenan had been more upright, he
would've done. Steward was turning side-on to protect himself,
with the consequences that he was hitting Keenan with his braced
left arm and body; the natural consequence of that is that it
would've ended up being a shoulder charge if the point of
contact was higher. That's the only point I'm making there.
Ultimately where you [and the panel] and I [and the ref]
disagree is really on point i) - I don't see anything out of the
ordinary from Keenan and I don't see any evidence from Steward
that he was thinking of _anything_ before he braced for impact.
I think he had a brain freeze when the pass was obviously
forward and he was on autopilot until the proximity alarm
started blaring in his head - to me that's the best explanation
for both his lack of obvious shaping to do anything and his
panic attack at the very last second. There's just nothing in
the replays that convinces me this was an unexpected scenario.
Obviously Steward reacted as if it were, but that's not the same
thing.
#Post#: 106316--------------------------------------------------
Re: Rugby is dead - red card
DIR By: DOK
Date: March 24, 2023, 6:12 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Nigel Owens view on the kerfuffle
HTML https://archive.is/C9UwF
#Post#: 106322--------------------------------------------------
Re: Rugby is dead - red card
DIR By: deadlyfrom5yardsout
Date: March 25, 2023, 4:57 am
---------------------------------------------------------
He is not a fan of the "Off Field Review" then!
#Post#: 106506--------------------------------------------------
Re: Rugby is dead - red card
DIR By: deadlyfrom5yardsout
Date: March 26, 2023, 3:50 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Rugby World Cup could feature radical red card upgrade system
Exclusive: Proposed new rule was discussed just days after
England full-back Freddie Steward was sent off in final match of
the Six Nations
By
Charlie Morgan,
SENIOR RUGBY WRITER
25 March 2023 • 12:00pm
Jaco Peyper hands Freddie Steward his red card - Rugby World Cup
could feature radical red card upgrade system
Referee Jaco Peyper found himself at the centre of a controversy
when he sent England full-back Freddie Steward off last weekend
CREDIT: Getty Images/David Rogers
World Rugby is exploring an innovative law change that would see
yellow cards upgraded to reds by television officials at this
year’s World Cup, Telegraph Sport understands.
The move would alter the handling of controversial dismissals
such as Freddie Steward’s for England against Ireland last
weekend. The governing body will come to a decision over the
next two months after exploring logistical hurdles and
consulting with stakeholders, including players and coaches.
There is still a way to go for the off-field upgrades to be in
place at the World Cup because the system would need a wider
trial, slated for the Under-20 World Championship this summer.
Matches would also need an extra TMO, meaning more officials
would need to be appointed and trained prior to the flagship
tournament, which begins on September 8.
Telegraph Sport understands there is a growing reluctance from
referees to give red cards for “grey area” incidents at the
World Cup in the wake of Steward’s sending off. The new law
could help reduce these instances for the on-field officials.
England’s full-back was dismissed on the verge of half-time in
Dublin following a high-speed clash with Hugo Keenan in which
Steward turned to protect himself and inadvertently made contact
with the head of his opposite number.
Initially brought in to shorten stoppages while the on-field
officials confer with their TMO, this off-field upgrade system
could also ensure that red cards are not branded hastily and
that teams have a better chance of keeping all 15 players on the
field.
Should the World Cup adopt this law, which is being trialled in
the Super Rugby Pacific competition, there will be one major
change. In the Super Rugby Pacific competition, yellows have
been upgraded to a 20-minute red card with the offending player
replaced by a team-mate if the TMO deems the offence to be
serious enough. At the World Cup, however, there would only be
yellow cards or traditional, permanent red cards.
World Rugby have been enthused by initial reaction to the Super
Rugby Pacific trial and would be happy to roll it out further at
relatively short notice because it would not need players or
coaches to make any material alterations to their World Cup
preparation.
One criticism of the Super Rugby trial has been that any upgrade
has not always been obvious to spectators at the ground. World
Rugby will be eager to address this concern at their showpiece
event.
Caleb Clarke of the Blues (right) is sent off with a red card by
referee James Doleman - Rugby World Cup could feature radical
red card upgrade system
Super Rugby Pacific have been trialling the law CREDIT: Getty
Images/Fiona Goodall
A source, who officiated in this Six Nations and attended a
significant World Rugby alignment meeting between international
coaches and referees on Monday, revealed the incident had split
opinion at the very top of the sport.
There is a growing sense that officials, as well as
decision-makers at World Rugby, do not want World Cup matches to
hinge on similarly divisive red cards.
“There is a feeling going into the World Cup that we clearly
don’t want games decided on incidents like that when there is so
much grey around it,” said the source.
“Would that [the Steward incident] be a red again? Probably not,
because it splits opinion so much and is so potentially decisive
in the outcome of the game.”
World Rugby is aiming to aid officials with a background
“calibration process” that sees the ex-players and coaches that
developed the head contact process (HCP), such as former New
Zealand centre Conrad Smith and Scotland head coach Gregor
Townsend, review a series of incidents every three weeks and
circulate a document detailing best practice. Chris Quinlan, the
head of judiciary at World Rugby, is also involved in this
exercise.
However, it is understood that at this week’s meeting in
Heathrow, decision-makers were split over the correct outcome in
the Steward incident.
Peyper followed protocol and did not ‘pluck a card out of thin
air’
The advent of the HCP, which was launched in 2021 as an
evolution of the high tackle sanction framework (HTSF) designed
to determine on-field sanctions, means referees must be “very
bold” to adjudge an on-field collision to be deemed as “a rugby
incident”.
It was stressed that Jaco Peyper followed protocol on Saturday
and did not “pluck a card out of thin air”. Once the HCP is
implemented by officials, a sending-off or a sin-binning are the
most likely outcomes.
“As referees we need to be absolutely sure that there is no
fault on behalf of the defender and that his actions were
completely unavoidable to go down the ‘no foul play’ route,”
suggested the source.
“A lot of us could understand the calls to go with no foul play
but I’m not sure we would have been comfortable doing that
because of the emphasis around protecting players’ heads.”
‘The more incidents we have in the lead-up to the World Cup, the
clearer we can be on what is expected’
The source also underlined the pressure that Peyper would have
been under at the Aviva Stadium, something also highlighted by
the disciplinary hearing that retrospectively rescinded
Steward’s sanction from a red to a yellow card.
Peyper used the phrase “in the current climate” upon explaining
his decision, and it was outlined that “we all know that if a
player is not in control of what they are doing, they run the
risk of being penalised”.
“What we’ll find is that the more incidents we have in the
lead-up to the World Cup, the clearer we can be on what is
expected of our officiating,” said the source.
“With hindsight, the judgment ruled that a yellow card was
sufficient but we need to acknowledge, in [the Steward] one,
that it was a very rare scenario. We certainly don’t get a
decision that could have three potential outcomes very often.”
The independent disciplinary committee found that Steward had
committed an act of foul play, a charge that the player denied,
yet downgraded the punishment due to “sufficient mitigating
factors including the late change in the dynamics and
positioning of the opposing player which should have resulted in
the issue of a yellow card rather than a red card”.
“Rugby is so grey,” said the official. “We have around 300
tackles a game, so there would have been 4,500 over the course
of the Six Nations. We’re now talking about one of them. There
are going to be situations where we are putting a square peg in
a round hole but hopefully, the more things crop up, the more
guidance we will get. But it really did split the room
completely.”
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#Post#: 106507--------------------------------------------------
Re: Rugby is dead - red card
DIR By: deadlyfrom5yardsout
Date: March 26, 2023, 3:54 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Another new Law being trialled in Super Rugby which is that the
defending scrum half at a scrum cannot progress past the
"tunnel"...
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