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#Post#: 105737--------------------------------------------------
Re: Collier called into England training camp
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: March 16, 2023, 4:36 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Sinfield apparently almost got Leeds relegated when he was
coaching there. His CV is a bit "eh?" for an international
coach.
Steward will always look ponderous but I think his defensive
work is "OK". He's world class in the air and effective going
forward. If someone like Arundell turns out to be an excellent
15 then sure, drop him, but he's a big bonus for us at the
moment. And although he made some big errors against France,
Steward also did plenty of our best work.
#Post#: 105738--------------------------------------------------
Re: Collier called into England training camp
DIR By: Yareet
Date: March 16, 2023, 5:02 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: poorfour link ---
>
> I am finding myself increasingly disengaged with Borthwick's
tactics, selections and leaks. I just don't get what he's trying
to do, and I don't think Sinfield's defensive patterns are
working.
>
> And I could even see some method in Eddie's pre-sacking plans.
>
> By the way, am I the only one who's not completely enamoured
of Steward? Everyone seems to think he performs well because he
doesn't drop the high balls like Daly, but between his
relatively lack of agility and acceleration and the weaknesses
in his positional play, he is not as secure at the back as an
international full back needs to be, something that both
Scotland and France exploited.
>
> Meanwhile, Marcus and Dommers are copping a lot of the flak
for what went wrong - but from what I could see in the stadium,
Dombrandt was getting pinged because whether in attack or
defence he was often going into the breakdown without support,
and Marcus hit more rucks than a flyhalf should ever be asked to
hit.
>
--- End Quote ---
I like Dommers but he hasn't shone at all this 6N -
unfortunately quite the opposite. His attempted tackle on vd
Merwe was woeful (why go high on a big man?) and on Saturday he
looked off the pace. Exactly what some on here have criticised
Billy for in the past.
There is every possibility that he's doing loads of unseen stuff
(attracting defenders elsewhere to create gaps, marshalling
attackers back into traffic to allow others to make the tackle,
etc.) so I'd be intrigued to see how he compares to other 8s
when one looks at his game in the round. Unfortunately however,
the highlight reel stuff (which IMO is what most fans will be
swung by) hasn't been in his favour which allows non-Quins fans
to see him as out of his depth.
#Post#: 105739--------------------------------------------------
Re: Collier called into England training camp
DIR By: #495
Date: March 16, 2023, 5:03 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I think with Sinfield it is a case of him being an incredibly
inspiring human being, but at this point in time is a very
inexperienced rugby union coach.
Borthwick has more experience admittedly, but comparatively less
than the other 6N coaches (I think). Unfortunately he also
comes across as one of the least motivational characters among
coaches that could have got the job. Maybe Sinfield's presence
makes up for that and it's noticeable that Sinfield seems to get
the job of talking to the press during the week, even compared
to NEv who you hardly hear from (don't blame him if he wants to
keep a low profile!).
#Post#: 105740--------------------------------------------------
Re: Collier called into England training camp
DIR By: #495
Date: March 16, 2023, 5:07 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Yareet link ---
>
> I like Dommers but he hasn't shone at all this 6N -
unfortunately quite the opposite. His attempted tackle on vd
Merwe was woeful (why go high on a big man?) and on Saturday he
looked off the pace. Exactly what some on here have criticised
Billy for in the past.
>
> There is every possibility that he's doing loads of unseen
stuff (attracting defenders elsewhere to create gaps,
marshalling attackers back into traffic to allow others to make
the tackle, etc.) so I'd be intrigued to see how he compares to
other 8s when one looks at his game in the round. Unfortunately
however, the highlight reel stuff (which IMO is what most fans
will be swung by) hasn't been in his favour which allows
non-Quins fans to see him as out of his depth.
>
--- End Quote ---
Have to agree in that he hasn't really made the shirt his own or
given a compelling reason to pick him over other contenders.
Weirdly, his handling has let him down on a few occasions,
dropping kick-offs or simple passes. From kick-offs and in
other tight-carrying situations, he hasn't made metres and has
been put down pretty quickly. Apparently Billy V won't get
picked because he fell out with Borthwick, so I think the
coaches will look at Tom Willis and Mercer before the world cup.
#Post#: 105741--------------------------------------------------
Re: Collier called into England training camp
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: March 16, 2023, 5:21 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Yareet link ---
>
> I like Dommers but he hasn't shone at all this 6N -
unfortunately quite the opposite. His attempted tackle on vd
Merwe was woeful (why go high on a big man?) and on Saturday he
looked off the pace. Exactly what some on here have criticised
Billy for in the past.
>
> There is every possibility that he's doing loads of unseen
stuff (attracting defenders elsewhere to create gaps,
marshalling attackers back into traffic to allow others to make
the tackle, etc.) so I'd be intrigued to see how he compares to
other 8s when one looks at his game in the round. Unfortunately
however, the highlight reel stuff (which IMO is what most fans
will be swung by) hasn't been in his favour which allows
non-Quins fans to see him as out of his depth.
>
--- End Quote ---
He has been up and down. Against Scotland he did some good, some
bad. Italy was much, much better, but still with some obvious
gaffes. Wales he was excellent and the entire back row shone.
It's not so much unseen work, though. Against France he carried
poorly at times. He also joint most carries in the pack, almost
twice as many metres as the next best forward, and more tackles
than any Englishman (tied for #1 with Cros, who missed more),
AND also had to play out in the backs only to be sold down the
river when he was left covering 50m of space against a World XV
winger. He was absolutely shot at that point but still managed
to get the tap tackle in - Penaud is freakish and somehow
managed to stay upright.
He's getting abuse because a) there's some level of antipathy
towards Quins in particular and attacking players in general, b)
that moment with Penaud looked awful for someone who "looks"
unfit despite having a big engine, c) he's made high profile
errors in other games, and d) number 8 is like flyhalf -
everyone has their favourites.
I saw people on Twitter decrying Dombrandt and saying it was
unfair Simmonds hadn't been given a chance, etc etc. Sorry, but
as much as I love Sam Simmonds, he is half the player he was
when he was on top of Europe, and he's had more chances than
Dombrandt. If our problem is club form not translating to
international form, maybe don't suggest we pick the poster boy
for that problem as a solution. And Billy is Billy - you know
what you're going to get from him, and it's largely "incredible
disappointment at the world cup".
It's not like his colleagues were good either. Ludlam, who
looked like he'd been reborn as an international blindside,
played the full 8 and made fewer tackles while missing more,
conceded the same number of turnovers, and made very little
impact with his carrying - but more importantly, gave away THREE
penalties, only matched by Sinckler who was getting done in the
scrum. Willis, who I think could be one of the best we've ever
had at 7 if he can stay fit, did absolutely nothing at the
breakdown, went 7/3 in defence, and had even less impact with
ball in hand.
Do I think that Ludlam and Willis deserve criticism? Only up to
a point. This was very clearly a game where something had gone
badly wrong from the start, as Sinfield pointed out. Dombrandt
is being singled out and while I can't and won't defend the
things he did badly, I also think it's daft to focus on
individuals when it was a collective failure right from the
first minute. Rightly or wrongly, he is the guy who is going to
stress his skills more often than not and there's going to be
mistakes, and that leads to being a lightning rod for criticism.
You're not going to see Ludlam trying to take a pass behind him
at full tilt while flat at the line, for example, or Willis
taking responsibility for every kickoff. Such is life.
I honestly think the best thing to do would be to go again with
the same team bar Tuilagi for Lawrence and Marchant for Slade.
Last chance saloon for the pack. Backs under no illusions what
is expected of them. I would also be fine with Farrell at 12 (I
know, I know - but I like him there more than most, I just need
him to actually try and play 12 when he does it).
#Post#: 105742--------------------------------------------------
Re: Collier called into England training camp
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: March 16, 2023, 5:25 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: #495 link ---
>
> Have to agree in that he hasn't really made the shirt his own
or given a compelling reason to pick him over other contenders.
Weirdly, his handling has let him down on a few occasions,
dropping kick-offs or simple passes. From kick-offs and in
other tight-carrying situations, he hasn't made metres and has
been put down pretty quickly. Apparently Billy V won't get
picked because he fell out with Borthwick, so I think the
coaches will look at Tom Willis and Mercer before the world cup.
>
--- End Quote ---
I don't think the "hasn't made metres in the tight and gets put
down easily" thing is true outside of a couple of carries
against the French, fwiw. Completely agree the
(uncharacteristic) errors are the big issue, and a) I have
confidence in his skills coming through, and b) that's basically
what you get when you have a player trying to do something out
of the ordinary rather than just truck it up.
Certainly if you want a CJ Stander tribute act then Tom Willis
is a great shout, he's a better Billy IMO. Mercer is something
of an unknown, he looked absolutely world class at times in
Europe but I also remember him looking absolutely hopeless at
times for Bath - he's another who can risk going down exactly
the same path as Dombrandt where he's trying to do more and
getting brickbats when it goes wrong. Definitely should be in
the conversation post world cup, not least because he can play
across the back row, too.
#Post#: 105743--------------------------------------------------
Re: Collier called into England training camp
DIR By: Yareet
Date: March 16, 2023, 5:31 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> He has been up and down. Against Scotland he did some good,
some bad. Italy was much, much better, but still with some
obvious gaffes. Wales he was excellent and the entire back row
shone.
>
> It's not so much unseen work, though. Against France he
carried poorly at times. He also joint most carries in the pack,
almost twice as many metres as the next best forward, and more
tackles than any Englishman (tied for #1 with Cros, who missed
more), AND also had to play out in the backs only to be sold
down the river when he was left covering 50m of space against a
World XV winger. He was absolutely shot at that point but still
managed to get the tap tackle in - Penaud is freakish and
somehow managed to stay upright.
>
> He's getting abuse because a) there's some level of antipathy
towards Quins in particular and attacking players in general, b)
that moment with Penaud looked awful for someone who "looks"
unfit despite having a big engine, c) he's made high profile
errors in other games, and d) number 8 is like flyhalf -
everyone has their favourites.
>
> I saw people on Twitter decrying Dombrandt and saying it was
unfair Simmonds hadn't been given a chance, etc etc. Sorry, but
as much as I love Sam Simmonds, he is half the player he was
when he was on top of Europe, and he's had more chances than
Dombrandt. If our problem is club form not translating to
international form, maybe don't suggest we pick the poster boy
for that problem as a solution. And Billy is Billy - you know
what you're going to get from him, and it's largely "incredible
disappointment at the world cup".
>
> It's not like his colleagues were good either. Ludlam, who
looked like he'd been reborn as an international blindside,
played the full 8 and made fewer tackles while missing more,
conceded the same number of turnovers, and made very little
impact with his carrying - but more importantly, gave away THREE
penalties, only matched by Sinckler who was getting done in the
scrum. Willis, who I think could be one of the best we've ever
had at 7 if he can stay fit, did absolutely nothing at the
breakdown, went 7/3 in defence, and had even less impact with
ball in hand.
>
> Do I think that Ludlam and Willis deserve criticism? Only up
to a point. This was very clearly a game where something had
gone badly wrong from the start, as Sinfield pointed out.
Dombrandt is being singled out and while I can't and won't
defend the things he did badly, I also think it's daft to focus
on individuals when it was a collective failure right from the
first minute. Rightly or wrongly, he is the guy who is going to
stress his skills more often than not and there's going to be
mistakes, and that leads to being a lightning rod for criticism.
You're not going to see Ludlam trying to take a pass behind him
at full tilt while flat at the line, for example, or Willis
taking responsibility for every kickoff. Such is life.
>
> I honestly think the best thing to do would be to go again
with the same team bar Tuilagi for Lawrence and Marchant for
Slade. Last chance saloon for the pack. Backs under no illusions
what is expected of them. I would also be fine with Farrell at
12 (I know, I know - but I like him there more than most, I just
need him to actually try and play 12 when he does it).
>
--- End Quote ---
Yay - centre combination #438!
It can't be that simple as changing Slade for Marchant will mean
a different game plan. All the Borthwick England squads have had
2 playmakers.
#Post#: 105744--------------------------------------------------
Re: Collier called into England training camp
DIR By: poorfour
Date: March 16, 2023, 5:33 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> Sinfield apparently almost got Leeds relegated when he was
coaching there. His CV is a bit "eh?" for an international
coach.
>
> Steward will always look ponderous but I think his defensive
work is "OK". He's world class in the air and effective going
forward. If someone like Arundell turns out to be an excellent
15 then sure, drop him, but he's a big bonus for us at the
moment. And although he made some big errors against France,
Steward also did plenty of our best work.
>
--- End Quote ---
To misappropriate the famous Aussie quote about the Waugh
brothers, I'd argue that right now Steward isn't even the best
fullback in his own club...
#Post#: 105745--------------------------------------------------
Re: Collier called into England training camp
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: March 16, 2023, 5:39 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Yareet link ---
>
> Yay - centre combination #438!
>
> It can't be that simple as changing Slade for Marchant will
mean a different game plan. All the Borthwick England squads
have had 2 playmakers.
>
--- End Quote ---
We have to make changes with Lawrence out anyway. And it's all
well and good demanding two playmakers, but when one of them
does nothing all game and is an absolute horror show in defence,
what's the point?
Slade has played 200 minutes of rugby this 6N. He's made 64
metres ball in hand, kicked 90m, passed 20 times, broken one
tackle, made 10 tackles, missed seven tackles (lol), conceded
one turnover, and conceded 4 penalties (how you do that as a 13,
I don't know).
No dominant tackles. No breaks. No tries. No scoring passes. No
turnovers won. And I don't really remember a single time he did
something good.
In his less-than-one game, Marchant made 58 metres, went 6/1 in
defence, and beat 2 defenders.
But hey, let's not change things, so we'll let Slade steal
another cap. Maybe this'll be the one in 10 that's actually any
good.
#Post#: 105746--------------------------------------------------
Re: Collier called into England training camp
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: March 16, 2023, 5:42 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: poorfour link ---
>
> To misappropriate the famous Aussie quote about the Waugh
brothers, I'd argue that right now Steward isn't even the best
fullback in his own club...
>
--- End Quote ---
Certainly an interesting call to suggest that the 47-year-old
Mike Brown is the better 15 on account of Steward being a little
slow and primarily good at taking the high ball & running
into/through contact... :-)
I hear Ben Youngs was tearing it up for them too!
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