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#Post#: 104266--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ethnicity in British Rugby
DIR By: Kermitpower
Date: February 15, 2023, 11:26 am
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--- Quote from: poorfour link ---
> Equality of outcome is important because if it's measured it
forces organisations to ask "why?". If your academy output
doesn't reflect the diversity of your catchment area, then why
not? Are you missing out on a talent pool that you could be
tapping?
--- End Quote ---
I'd suggest that equality of opportunity is the important thing,
not of outcome.
If you go and take a look at the British Athletics elite squad,
it will come as no real surprise to see that the athletes
selected for sprint events are pretty much exclusively black,
whereas those running middle to long distance events are largely
white. Obviously there's no suggestion of any sort of racism
going on there in either direction.
Equality of opportunity is what governs people of all
backgrounds having access to athletics clubs with a chance of
making it to the very top of the game. Trying to impose
equality of outcome to ensure Olympic representation in line
with UK demographics for each event would be patently absurd
when quite clearly different racial groups have different
physical characteristics which in this case make them more
suited for one event or another, even though the overall clearly
doesn't have any sort of race problem.
#Post#: 104275--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ethnicity in British Rugby
DIR By: QuincyJones
Date: February 15, 2023, 2:58 pm
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Agree. Equality of opportunity is the most important thing. If
that is truly there, then a club can rest safe in the knowledge
that they have the best players available to them....for a
variety of reasons!
The IT company I work at is hell bent on trying to make the
company an equal 50/50 split of men and women. This is
ridiculous because 1 in 10 of all IT job applications are women.
Therefore, if you employ men and women in an equal ratio, not
only will you be wasting extra time/money recruiting but you
won't be hiring the best available talent. There's nothing wrong
with encouraging women to do STEM degrees and get IT jobs (and
basically doing everything to ensure women are catered for and
looked after equally in a male-dominated sector) but at the end
of the day, we're all different and there are a variety of
reasons why men and women are (largely) drawn to some careers
over others!
Put the opportunity there for all and let people choose what
they want to do. I think it's the same principle for both gender
and ethnicity.
#Post#: 104276--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ethnicity in British Rugby
DIR By: Rocker
Date: February 15, 2023, 3:45 pm
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"but at the end of the day, we're all different and there are a
variety of reasons why men and women are (largely) drawn to some
careers over others!"
Case in point, the other way, how many males go into HR?
#Post#: 104277--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ethnicity in British Rugby
DIR By: poorfour
Date: February 15, 2023, 4:00 pm
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Equality of opportunity is the ideal; the problem with it is
that it’s almost impossible to measure.
Equality of outcome, on the other hand, is very easy to measure.
It’s not perfect, and it’s a lag indicator, but as I pointed out
above it forces the entities that are measuring it to look at
why it isn’t happening.
I agree that you can’t force equality of outcome, but it’s a
good tool for trying to understand where there might be
unfairness that needs to be addressed. In a lot of consulting
firms, the gender balance at graduate intake is already 50/50 -
but it skews towards men as you get higher in the organisation.
That’s partly because women tend to be the ones who take career
breaks to raise kids - but that in turn can lead us to ask
whether we can do more to enable parents to share
responsibilities and to encourage women back into the workplace.
If you focus on equality of opportunity, the danger is that you
end up going “well, we hire as many women as men and obviously
they are choosing not to stay, but we’ve offered them the same
opportunities.” Equality (or proportionality) of outcome is
probably an unattainable goal, but it makes it much harder to
pretend that you can’t improve further.
#Post#: 104278--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ethnicity in British Rugby
DIR By: Muzza
Date: February 15, 2023, 5:22 pm
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No one has mentioned the influence of “money” in professional
sport.
Rugby is well down the list of incomes for professional sports.
Except for those good enough to have an international career and
imported tier 1 internationals there is no money in British
rugby compared to other types of careers.
What does this have to do with ethnicity. Unlike South Africa &
NZ for many English teenagers’ rugby isn’t their natural
historical home - as suggested above in England which school you
attended can play a pivotal role. So, the question is why a
talented sports teenager from any ethnicity would pursue
professional rugby when you have a better chance of playing
football in league 1 or 2 or basketball or X that all have multi
levels of professional leagues around the world.
If you tripled the average incomes of professional rugby players
to say the level of Championship footballers, then the catchment
area of different ethnicities could dramatically increase.
PS - I am not suggesting that incomes is the silver bullet to
resolve such a complex issue but you need to bring money into
the discussion.
#Post#: 104279--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ethnicity in British Rugby
DIR By: raedarius
Date: February 16, 2023, 3:01 am
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--- Quote from: poorfour link ---
> I caught a lift back from one of my coaching courses with one
of the RFU Community officers who first spotted Kyle Sinckler.
He said that at the time the Quins academy coaches had no
awareness of the talent outside the private school sector had
took some persuading to take a look at a young Sinck. It was an
eye-opener for them in terms of casting the net wider in looking
for talent.
--- End Quote ---
Similarly, not that long ago, I was told by a representative of
another club that the schools, not the clubs, are the real focus
for Academy intake.
Quins still field a largely 'good school' U18 team,
notwithstanding their realisation about talent elsewhere (I
realise that Gordon's is the partnership school for Quins U17-18
- are any others?):
HTML https://www.quins.co.uk/article/harlequins-u18s-name-side-for-gloucester-u18s-match
#Post#: 104281--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ethnicity in British Rugby
DIR By: Quinky
Date: February 16, 2023, 3:30 am
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--- Quote from: poorfour link ---
>
> Equality of opportunity is the ideal; the problem with it is
that it’s almost impossible to measure.
>
> Equality of outcome, on the other hand, is very easy to
measure. It’s not perfect, and it’s a lag indicator, but as I
pointed out above it forces the entities that are measuring it
to look at why it isn’t happening.
>
>
>
--- End Quote ---
The problem with this approach is that it misses out what is IMO
the biggest factor - choice. A lot of people simply choode one
path over another. Forcing the equality of outcome is akin to
forcing a choice on people. At the same time it deprives others
of a choice.
#Post#: 104282--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ethnicity in British Rugby
DIR By: Quinky
Date: February 16, 2023, 3:33 am
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--- Quote from: poorfour link ---
>
> Equality of outcome is important because if it's measured it
forces organisations to ask "why?".
>
--- End Quote ---
Equality of outcome is probably the worst thing to pursue. As
Jordan Peterson points out, how do you ensure that every single
identifying factor is included? And as for determoning the
"why", if you push equality of outcome then the "why" is
"because we want proportional representation". That way madness
lies.
#Post#: 104285--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ethnicity in British Rugby
DIR By: Brown Bottle
Date: February 16, 2023, 4:13 am
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--- Quote from: Quinky link ---
>
> Equality of outcome is probably the worst thing to pursue. As
Jordan Peterson points out, how do you ensure that every single
identifying factor is included? And as for determoning the
"why", if you push equality of outcome then the "why" is
"because we want proportional representation". That way madness
lies.
>
--- End Quote ---
There's a difference between aiming for it and measuring it for
consideration, though.
#Post#: 104292--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ethnicity in British Rugby
DIR By: Yareet
Date: February 16, 2023, 6:46 am
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--- Quote from: Quinky link ---
>
> The problem with this approach is that it misses out what is
IMO the biggest factor - choice. A lot of people simply choode
one path over another. Forcing the equality of outcome is akin
to forcing a choice on people. At the same time it deprives
others of a choice.
>
--- End Quote ---
Sorry Quinks but it's a hard disagree from me. Nobody simply
chooses one path over another. Choices are made based on a
number or factors - some conscious, others more ingrained.
I have a plethora of sports I could play. I choose to play rugby
because as a child, that is the sport that I was introduced to.
Am I consciously choosing not to play football? To some extent
yes but that is based ultimately on my upbringing. Had I never
been introduced to rugby (especially at such a young age), there
is a far lower likelihood that I would be playing now.
We can't (and don't) leap to the conclusion that the football
community is actively working to stop Northerners joining their
SW London teams but you must appreciate that my upbringing and
the culture I was born into have led me to the choices I make
today.
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