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       #Post#: 99686--------------------------------------------------
       Re: England vs South Africa 
   DIR By: Quinky
       Date: November 27, 2022, 10:02 am
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       One last thing to add: Malcolm Marx is absolutely huge! The guy
       is a real physical specimen and seeing him close up you realise
       how he can appear immovable over the ball
       #Post#: 99687--------------------------------------------------
       Re: England vs South Africa 
   DIR By: SunburyQuin
       Date: November 27, 2022, 10:25 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Is anyone watch Tigers v L. Irish ? What about Ollie
       Hassell-Collins getting a shout for England ? He has been
       immense so far today !
       #Post#: 99688--------------------------------------------------
       Re: England vs South Africa 
   DIR By: BedfordshireBoy
       Date: November 27, 2022, 10:33 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Sadly I suspect that it is very unlikely that the RFU will end
       the EJ tenure and even more unlikely that EJ will significantly
       change his selections.
       #Post#: 99689--------------------------------------------------
       Re: England vs South Africa 
   DIR By: Grins
       Date: November 27, 2022, 11:57 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: Banstead Quin link ---
       >
       > Ok so very clear things not moving forward with England but
       going backwards. Our much vaunted pack have now been bossed by
       two good scrummaging sides (Argentina, Boks), just lucky we're
       not playing Georgia!!!
       >
       > Too many players playing on 2019 reputations and no one seems
       to know what the game plan is. If its a Quins style, you need
       players that fit it and that is not the case at the moment. If
       its a Tigers/pre 2022 Sarries style, then don't pick the
       creatives and fill the team to match the system. This is not
       scientific stuff to work out.
       >
       > Leadership, again, when has our 'Captain' ever dragged us out
       of a losing position in a game? He isn't there on merit so
       shouldn't be there. Carling, Johnson, Dallaglio, Robshaw all had
       games where they stood up and said if you won't do it, I will
       and upped the performances of the rest. Farrell only looks great
       when we're winning.
       >
       > So, new coach, pick a system and recruit to it. After the 6N
       is too late, we need a new head coach before then. If that's
       Borthwick and we can't have him till 1st June, then fine ask him
       what he wants and get an interim to coach that way so at least
       the players have a view on what is expected. Dont just panic and
       pick who is available (and if its Gatland, I'm moving to
       Scotland and disassociating with England)
       >
       > My starting XV for the world up is:-
       >
       > 15 - Steward (no other contender)
       > 14 - Arundell (his pace keeps defences honest)
       > 13 - Marchant (great in attack/defence and an ariel threat at
       kick offs and Gary Owens)
       > 12 - Slade (gives the left footed kicking option and so
       creative. Plus, he's actually a centre)
       > 11 - Murley (quick, strong and a great finisher)
       > 10 - Smith (just pure genius when allowed to play his natural
       game)
       > 9 - Quirke (just love his style of play - JVP as backbup)
       > 8 - Dombrandt (can play in either game plan and just sees
       things other 8s don't. Not a truck it up merchant/one trick
       pony)
       > 7 - Curry (not a bad player, just playing in a bad side)
       > 6 - Willis (good running/tackling/jackling and a 3rd LO
       option)
       > 5 - Coles/Ribbans/Tizard (the one position I'm not sure of but
       3 good options)
       > 4 - Itoje (c) (similar to Curry, just playing in a bad side
       and his Sarries petulance will calm down if Captain)
       > 3 - Sinckler (looks frustrated as the rest of the side
       capitulates around him. Has great hands in the loose)
       > 2 - George (just shades LCD for me and again will benefit from
       a better side/system around him)
       > 1 - Genge (feeds off of good energy and like Sinks, has good
       hands in the loose
       >
       > Should never play for England again:-
       >
       > The Vunipolae
       > Jonny Hill
       > Manu Tuilagi
       > Johnny May
       > Owen Farrell - (work out what you want to be and whether your
       ego will let you play for a team rather than yourself being
       Billy big banana's. You are not a bad player, just haven't
       learnt the lesson of the needs of the one outweighing the needs
       of the many. Sort that and you could be back in, on the bench,
       of course, else go and fulfill your Rugby League dream)
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       If that is your view of Farrell, then you really don’t have much
       credibility to comment with any authority on rugby.  He has a
       number of flaws as a rugby player, but the idea that he is
       anything but a team player is totally incorrect.
       #Post#: 99690--------------------------------------------------
       Re: England vs South Africa 
   DIR By: Man From LA
       Date: November 27, 2022, 12:20 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       When Farrell was dropped as captain for England for Lawes, was
       his reaction to be a team player, put the team first and support
       the new captain 100%? Eddie Jones said at the time: “It is a
       difficult situation (the dynamic this decision created between
       Farrell and Lawes)... they’re working it out.” Seems from that
       comment that the answer is possibly not.
       #Post#: 99691--------------------------------------------------
       Re: England vs South Africa 
   DIR By: Monte
       Date: November 27, 2022, 12:57 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Interesting discussion on Rugby tonight with Nick Easter, Ugo,
       Beno chaired by MB. Looking at Marcus/Owen’s stats for Club and
       the England stats for autumn internationals and the dreadful
       overall team stats for yesterday. I am no connoisseur of the
       scrum but even I could see mega problem yesterday and not much
       better in ruck. Ridiculous when you think of players and coaches
       in England.
       #Post#: 99693--------------------------------------------------
       Re: England vs South Africa 
   DIR By: Brown Bottle
       Date: November 27, 2022, 1:01 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       The Farrell/Lawes "thing" might have just been Farrell having to
       adjust to not being captain; it wasn't necessarily a big issue.
       I thought it was fairly common knowledge that OF is highly
       respected by coaches and players. That doesn't sound like a
       person who isn't a team player.
       #Post#: 99694--------------------------------------------------
       Re: England vs South Africa 
   DIR By: The Kid
       Date: November 27, 2022, 1:36 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Can’t seem to quote but in response to Quinky above, Yes, South
       Africa were excellent. A criticism of them last year was that
       they weren’t picking different guys, but they have had to due to
       various reasons and it’s paid off. I think they’re a step behind
       France and Ireland more generally and probably only 50-50 to get
       past either of them or NZ at best. We are a step off that. pace
       still. At least they know they can win with Willemse and Le
       Roux, have an option behind Kolbe in Arendse, and the likes of
       Roos, Libbok, and Hendrikse have been blooded to an extent. They
       also know their backup kicking options if they want to take
       Pollard off. England can take no such learnings into the World
       Cup, other than Ribbans being useful as probably the fourth lock
       behind Itoje, Hill, Lawes/Ewels.
       I wrestled with the counterpoint for a bit that Farrell doesn’t
       miss those two kicks most weeks, and that Etzebeth try gets
       chalked off 75% of the time. That changes the conversation a
       bit, but not enough. And in any case, the eye test would have
       told us otherwise.
       When assessing the entire autumn, there are some alarming
       patterns showing. Argentina, South Africa, and for 70 mins, the
       all blacks, are outplayed us and in each game we were
       indisciplined. The comeback last week was good, but was against
       14 men, and didn’t re-emerge against the boks as you’d hope it
       may have done. We blew Japan away, but they’re a good matchup
       for us and played badly on the day.
       Selection isn’t going to change under Eddie and his guys will
       play the RWC out. It’s just a shame that whoever follows him is
       going to be left with far more work to do than there should be.
       If there’s a game plan to be seen still, I suspect we will see
       it in the 6N at some stage but it doesn’t augur well.
       #Post#: 99696--------------------------------------------------
       Re: England vs South Africa 
   DIR By: Quinky
       Date: November 27, 2022, 4:03 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: The Kid link ---
       >
       > Can’t seem to quote but in response to Quinky above, Yes,
       South Africa were excellent. A criticism of them last year was
       that they weren’t picking different guys, but they have had to
       due to various reasons and it’s paid off. I think they’re a step
       behind France and Ireland more generally and probably only 50-50
       to get past either of them or NZ at best. We are a step off
       that. pace still. At least they know they can win with Willemse
       and Le Roux, have an option behind Kolbe in Arendse, and the
       likes of Roos, Libbok, and Hendrikse have been blooded to an
       extent. They also know their backup kicking options if they want
       to take Pollard off. England can take no such learnings into the
       World Cup, other than Ribbans being useful as probably the
       fourth lock behind Itoje, Hill, Lawes/Ewels.
       >
       > I wrestled with the counterpoint for a bit that Farrell
       doesn’t miss those two kicks most weeks, and that Etzebeth try
       gets chalked off 75% of the time. That changes the conversation
       a bit, but not enough. And in any case, the eye test would have
       told us otherwise.
       >
       > When assessing the entire autumn, there are some alarming
       patterns showing. Argentina, South Africa, and for 70 mins, the
       all blacks, are outplayed us and in each game we were
       indisciplined. The comeback last week was good, but was against
       14 men, and didn’t re-emerge against the boks as you’d hope it
       may have done. We blew Japan away, but they’re a good matchup
       for us and played badly on the day.
       >
       > Selection isn’t going to change under Eddie and his guys will
       play the RWC out. It’s just a shame that whoever follows him is
       going to be left with far more work to do than there should be.
       If there’s a game plan to be seen still, I suspect we will see
       it in the 6N at some stage but it doesn’t augur well.
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       I think EJ had a great number of opportunities in the past 12
       months to try new players, combinations, patterns etc. The fact
       that this doesn't seem to be happen could mean that he's not
       trying them, or he is and they're not working out, or the
       players just aren't willing/able to execute.
       The Boks are an interesting point. I didn't think they were
       great yesterday. Hpwever I think on the basis of their play
       against Ireland and France, they will get past either team -
       France being the tougher of the two. I still have some concerns
       about the back line, but the pack is nicely moulded and very
       settled. They have a wealth of options, and can mix and match as
       they see fit - plus there are guys to come back. Before the
       Wales game a commentator said "We will see the two best front
       rows in the world today. Sadly for Wales, they both play for the
       Boks". Maybe an exaggeration, but it made me smile. The weak
       area in my view is at half back. Faf is back to his best and
       hopefully the injury isn't bad. Pollard can't stay injury free
       and can't get his form. Jantjes is a no-no. Willemse seems
       nervous. Steyn wasn't good but could step in mid-game. Ditto
       Kolbe, apparently, although you just know he'd run everything.
       Libbock is very talented, but unproven at that level. It will be
       a gamble. Hopefully Am will be back soon as he really does add
       another dimension.
       England need to trust the young guys.Billy and Mako look old and
       unfit; Manu is just ineffective against a decent defence, and
       offers nothing more than bosh. Marchant it seems is now off the
       radar, so will they stick with Slade?
       The sad thing is that there is loads of English talent out
       there, but it's not being used.
       #Post#: 99698--------------------------------------------------
       Re: England vs South Africa 
   DIR By: DOK
       Date: November 27, 2022, 4:28 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       The truth is that we won one game out of four. We beat Japan.
       But England always have been great flat track bullies. They
       flatter to deceive. Honestly, on the basis of the AIs, can you
       see them winning RWC? I'd love that to be true but honestly?
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