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#Post#: 99670--------------------------------------------------
Re: England vs South Africa
DIR By: deadlyfrom5yardsout
Date: November 27, 2022, 3:25 am
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So, if we had a game next week would he have to rest anyway
under the protocols?
#Post#: 99672--------------------------------------------------
Re: England vs South Africa
DIR By: never sleep
Date: November 27, 2022, 3:48 am
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We play Bath on Friday night.
I assume he will be rested for this and be back for the
champions cup
#Post#: 99673--------------------------------------------------
Re: England vs South Africa
DIR By: Banstead Quin
Date: November 27, 2022, 4:17 am
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Ok so very clear things not moving forward with England but
going backwards. Our much vaunted pack have now been bossed by
two good scrummaging sides (Argentina, Boks), just lucky we're
not playing Georgia!!!
Too many players playing on 2019 reputations and no one seems to
know what the game plan is. If its a Quins style, you need
players that fit it and that is not the case at the moment. If
its a Tigers/pre 2022 Sarries style, then don't pick the
creatives and fill the team to match the system. This is not
scientific stuff to work out.
Leadership, again, when has our 'Captain' ever dragged us out of
a losing position in a game? He isn't there on merit so
shouldn't be there. Carling, Johnson, Dallaglio, Robshaw all had
games where they stood up and said if you won't do it, I will
and upped the performances of the rest. Farrell only looks great
when we're winning.
So, new coach, pick a system and recruit to it. After the 6N is
too late, we need a new head coach before then. If that's
Borthwick and we can't have him till 1st June, then fine ask him
what he wants and get an interim to coach that way so at least
the players have a view on what is expected. Dont just panic and
pick who is available (and if its Gatland, I'm moving to
Scotland and disassociating with England)
My starting XV for the world up is:-
15 - Steward (no other contender)
14 - Arundell (his pace keeps defences honest)
13 - Marchant (great in attack/defence and an ariel threat at
kick offs and Gary Owens)
12 - Slade (gives the left footed kicking option and so
creative. Plus, he's actually a centre)
11 - Murley (quick, strong and a great finisher)
10 - Smith (just pure genius when allowed to play his natural
game)
9 - Quirke (just love his style of play - JVP as backbup)
8 - Dombrandt (can play in either game plan and just sees things
other 8s don't. Not a truck it up merchant/one trick pony)
7 - Curry (not a bad player, just playing in a bad side)
6 - Willis (good running/tackling/jackling and a 3rd LO option)
5 - Coles/Ribbans/Tizard (the one position I'm not sure of but 3
good options)
4 - Itoje (c) (similar to Curry, just playing in a bad side and
his Sarries petulance will calm down if Captain)
3 - Sinckler (looks frustrated as the rest of the side
capitulates around him. Has great hands in the loose)
2 - George (just shades LCD for me and again will benefit from a
better side/system around him)
1 - Genge (feeds off of good energy and like Sinks, has good
hands in the loose
Should never play for England again:-
The Vunipolae
Jonny Hill
Manu Tuilagi
Johnny May
Owen Farrell - (work out what you want to be and whether your
ego will let you play for a team rather than yourself being
Billy big banana's. You are not a bad player, just haven't
learnt the lesson of the needs of the one outweighing the needs
of the many. Sort that and you could be back in, on the bench,
of course, else go and fulfill your Rugby League dream)
#Post#: 99674--------------------------------------------------
Re: England vs South Africa
DIR By: Audi Quintro
Date: November 27, 2022, 4:39 am
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Decent team except Coles who clearly isn’t international class
#Post#: 99675--------------------------------------------------
Re: England vs South Africa
DIR By: SunburyQuin
Date: November 27, 2022, 5:13 am
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Ribbans or Tizard at No. 5 for me.
#Post#: 99676--------------------------------------------------
Re: England vs South Africa
DIR By: SunburyQuin
Date: November 27, 2022, 5:26 am
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The only problem with the exclusion of the Vunipolae & Farrell,
BansteadQuin,is that it makes Saracens a whole lot stronger for
a significant number of games (injury permitting) than they
would otherwise be; otherwise I agree with you.
#Post#: 99682--------------------------------------------------
Re: England vs South Africa
DIR By: Quinky
Date: November 27, 2022, 7:47 am
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--- Quote from: The Kid link ---
>
> I should have elaborated more. I want to give England more
credit for trying to work with the internationally experienced
players they have and bright young things like Marcus and JVP
but I genuinely can’t find reasons to do it anymore.
>
> England under Eddie have always been about control and power.
This only works when you’re disciplined and this team isn’t.
Hill, the Vunipolae and even of late Curry are too indisciplined
too often. You can’t win rugby games and play on the edge like
that. Without sounding too Gen Z, the vibes are off with this
team. Applauding opposition penalties as voraciously as Maro
does looks stupid when you’re being pushed about. The talk isn’t
matching the walk.
>
> The way to beat this SA team (like we did last year) is play
with tempo and use strike moves to manipulate their defence’s
tendencies to shoot wingers out of the line and work out to in.
We didn’t do anything like that at any point. Instead, we tried
the same double pivot flexible formation thing we’ve been
mucking about with for ages which allowed their D to key in on
whoever the second pivot was. It was going badly when smith was
on (didn’t have a great game but we all know he’s being asked to
do something different to how he’s best used) and it
disintegrated completely when he left the field. Game over.
>
> The other things the boks do not like is tempo. We didn’t
impose ourselves or our tempo on the game. There’s nothing that
bok team loves more than a slow gritty imprecise game where
everything takes ages; multiple scrum resets, slow game with
lots of interruptions, constant water breaks. They’re really
good at the borderline underhand stuff and we just kinda let
them do it.
>
> If you’re going to match them there, You need quite power for
that and We were out powered (and fair play to the boks here -
that pack is excellent) but in backing ourselves here, also
played straight into their hands. They probably couldn’t believe
quite how simple it was.
>
> There are no solutions this side of the World Cup for England.
The team we see now with the likes of Ford and Ewels back in it
is what we will see at the RWC. There are exciting players in
the premiership and a decent enough pack to work with that is
still young and will be better (Genge, Stuart, Maro, Curry is
your core but the Willis’ and Dombrandts need to be in the side)
but that power element is always going to be second best to that
bok side.
>
> The philosophy needs to fundamentally change and that starts
with a new coaching setup that encourages heads up rugby, builds
on the decent defensive identity the team has and the power that
pack can generate, but brings in some of the electricity on the
outside that the premiership is bursting with. A kiwi coach
would make a lot of sense and bring out the best in the young
backs in the league like JVP, Marcus, Arundell, Murley, and
Steward and some of the younger dynamic forwards. There’s no
reason why this England generation emerging can’t do what France
have done. It’s the direction, or lack of an apposite one,
holding them back
>
--- End Quote ---
Agree with some of this, but not with other parts.
Yesterday I went to the game for the first time in ages. I came
away thinking that neither looked like winners of the RWC next
year - but with the one difference that SA "could" say that they
did enough to win, and that's all you have to do.
Thoughts on England: plan A didn't waork (as much as it was a
plan), so they reverted to plan A. Both Vunis looked slow, out
of shape, and one dimensional. Seeing them after the game it was
hard to think they're international rugby players. Hill was a
big liability. Tuilagi (seemed to be mentioned constantly on
social media all week; OK it's his 50th, but it gave the
impression they though he would "smash" the Boks) seemed
anonymous, as did Farrell. Smith was poor. May looked slow,
disinterested, ineffective. And later they bring on Nowell, who
did his usual dashing around, without seeming to have any impact
at all. I can't think of an England player who had a good game.
Meanwhile, players like Marchant, Radwan etc aren't picked. But
Ben Youngs is.
SA were without a few key players, BUT they had the courage to
select young guys with little experience alongside old heads.
Again, some weren't great; but a few took their chances. Yes,
the pack is a huge streght, and they seem to alomost interchange
(especially the front row) with no drop in power and
performance. Plus there are others in the bigger squad (e.g.
Koch). They still can't get the fly-half spot sorted, as Pollard
has been off form for a whie anyway, pre-injury. Jantjes just
doesn't replicate his form at international level. Willemse has
looked flaky. But they work around that and the team compensate.
Centres were solid, Marimpi was unusually quiet, Le Roux is back
to form, and Arendse - superb, like a smaller Kolbe.
The SA press are raving about the win. But it wasn't a great
one. England need to break some eggs to make their omelette.
Move on from the Vunis and Manu, Youngs, Nowell, May; give
younger guys the chance to show that can play. A few bad
results for experience is no bad thing. A few bad results on the
back of "look what he did three years ago", is unacceptable.
#Post#: 99683--------------------------------------------------
Re: England vs South Africa
DIR By: KentQuin
Date: November 27, 2022, 8:42 am
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EJ is well past his shelf life. Until he moves on, England won't
improve.
If you don't carry out EJ's instructions to the letter, or in
anyway question his methods, you're out. Whilst that strongarm
approach can work for a time, ultimately it leads to where we
find ourselves now, players who are scared to problem solve on
the pitch and often discouraged from playing heads up rugby.
As for his selection policy, its an absolute joke. He's had
years to blood and develop talented players to replace the likes
of Youngs, Manu, Nowell, Billy, Mako, May etc. and he's made a
complete hash of it, treating a number of players really poorly
by having them in and out of training squads like yo-yo's and
largely ignoring premiership form.
And I can't even bear to talk about England's attack. I've no
idea what Gleeson is trying to do.
There is time to fix this... a new coach can bring back the feel
good factor and still has a full 6N to prepare. But the RFU will
chug along with their head in the sand
#Post#: 99684--------------------------------------------------
Re: England vs South Africa
DIR By: Mayor West
Date: November 27, 2022, 9:48 am
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I believe the RFU are having a review of the Autumn
international performances and Englands current state and are
going to make a statement in a couple of weeks. A glimmer of
hope?
#Post#: 99685--------------------------------------------------
Re: England vs South Africa
DIR By: Camquin
Date: November 27, 2022, 9:49 am
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BBC says the RFU is going to hold an enquiry.
Not sure what it can find, as presumably it cannot blame the RFU
for hiring EJ.
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