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       #Post#: 96522--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Sir for Sunday
   DIR By: Banstead Quin
       Date: September 30, 2022, 8:05 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       I had heard that Tempest got some clog on Twitter but it was all
       measured and not downright nasty, so at least that's a positive
       for him.
       PRL do need to get this sorted though, the ref shouldn't be
       deciding games with all the technology available to him. The
       microchip'd ball and boots would be a great help
       #Post#: 96524--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Sir for Sunday
   DIR By: Nico Wilson
       Date: September 30, 2022, 8:22 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: Banstead Quin link ---
       >
       > PRL do need to get this sorted though, the ref shouldn't be
       deciding games with all the technology available to him. The
       microchip'd ball and boots would be a great help
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       I agree. I been told that there's amazing technology available
       to runners (orienteering and hill running were the examples I
       was given) that attaches to the boot to measure timings, so I'd
       hope it could easily be transferred from the bog pits of the
       uplands to boots and balls that grace the manicured grass of
       rugby fields.
       #Post#: 96526--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Sir for Sunday
   DIR By: Banstead Quin
       Date: September 30, 2022, 8:57 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       They have it in Golf balls now so should be good in all ball
       sports. Of course, they refs, clubs etc won't want it but it
       will take away the ambiguity around odd decisions but some of
       the ones from Sunday (double knee movement, ball and foot
       hitting the grass at the same time, forward passes, clearing a
       ruck not wrapping arms) the technology is already there for so
       no excuses...
       #Post#: 96528--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Sir for Sunday
   DIR By: T-Bone
       Date: September 30, 2022, 10:07 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       I'm not sure that we need new technology really. Last week was
       just an example of a referee not wanting to make a big,
       match-defining, unpopular call. Earlier in the match or in
       favour of the home team the call would have been different. He
       just bottled it.
       Technical innovation is always welcome, once tested, but just as
       players make mistakes, so will referees. We lost out last
       Saturday, but we won in Europe last season due to a dodgy
       penalty call, and same against Exeter two seasons ago.
       I was very annoyed at the time, but we have to get ourselves in
       a position where one bad call can't hurt us
       #Post#: 96530--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Sir for Sunday
   DIR By: Banstead Quin
       Date: September 30, 2022, 10:23 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       I do get that T-bone but it's harder for a ref to bottle it if
       the tech is saying, conclusively, the ball moved a metre forward
       in the pass. The other issue, of course, being camera angles. In
       most stadiums, they are never where the incidents occur so so
       there'll always be subjectivity as to whether it is actually
       forwarded.
       Grid the pitch and you'll know what happens when.
       #Post#: 96532--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Sir for Sunday
   DIR By: JammyGit
       Date: September 30, 2022, 10:36 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Gridding the pitch will make it even more confusing, because
       momentum will show that the ball travels forward in the vast
       majority of cases. And the ball "moving a metre forward" doesn't
       mean anything, which is the problem. We don't want to be ruling
       passes as forward based on comparisons to static lines. Which is
       why the only tech discussion that "works" is the one that
       determines whether the ball accelerated towards the tryline when
       the pass was made.
       And as someone who works in tech, I have a strong distrust of
       tech solutions to sporting problems ;-)
       The tech in golf balls, orienteering, hill running - none of
       these really need to be that accurate and are mostly either for
       pure entertainment (remember BT's quickly abandoned ball stats
       last season?) or for mapping.
       #Post#: 96533--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Sir for Sunday
   DIR By: never sleep
       Date: September 30, 2022, 10:42 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       I am not sure that the tech actually adds anything to the game.
       Rather just go back to the ref actually reffing the game.
       Take last week. We had three cases where the tmo was involved.
       Did it make any difference? All it does is take time out of the
       game.
       #Post#: 96552--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Sir for Sunday
   DIR By: Banstead Quin
       Date: October 1, 2022, 2:16 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Jammy/neversleep, I think that approach to technology is fine as
       long as the clubs/fans/media all accept that the ref will make
       errors and games will be decided on that one decision. The
       debate following last weekend suggests not!
       Whether a ball 'drifts' or 'accelerates' it's still forward and
       by bringing in the 'drifting' defence, all world rugby did was
       confuse the situation to pacify the unions. If my momentum
       naturally moves me offside, I'm offside. If in falling on the
       ground, my hand accidentally knocks the ball on, it's still a
       knock on so I dont see why this should be any different.
       #Post#: 96555--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Sir for Sunday
   DIR By: RodneyRegis
       Date: October 1, 2022, 5:07 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: T-Bone link ---
       >
       > I'm not sure that we need new technology really. Last week was
       just an example of a referee not wanting to make a big,
       match-defining, unpopular call. Earlier in the match or in
       favour of the home team the call would have been different. He
       just bottled it.
       >
       > Technical innovation is always welcome, once tested, but just
       as players make mistakes, so will referees. We lost out last
       Saturday, but we won in Europe last season due to a dodgy
       penalty call, and same against Exeter two seasons ago.
       >
       > I was very annoyed at the time, but we have to get ourselves
       in a position where one bad call can't hurt us
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       Disagree. the technology is already there to very easily
       implement an accelerometer/gyrometer to measure whether the ball
       has traveled forward relative to momentum. I should think most
       6th form colleges could come up with a working prototype between
       the IT and physics departments. Just have a beep on the ref's
       watch when the ball moves forward out of the hand and it's one
       less thing to worry about, no need for a camera to be stationed
       every couple of metres along the touchline to suit referees who
       don't want to admit they were too far behind the play. Could
       probably sort out a pretty reliable offside check at the same
       time.
       This would cut down on endless replays, and more importantly
       players, pundits, supporters and officials would learn what is
       actually forward, and players would adjust their play
       accordingly.
       I don't see how it's difficult to implement. There's no
       calculation on future outcomes like hawkeye for example. The
       technology is in everybody's pocket.
       #Post#: 96558--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Sir for Sunday
   DIR By: poorfour
       Date: October 1, 2022, 5:54 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       I imagine it’s a fair bit harder than you think, starting with
       the definition of “forwards”.
       The code needs to be able to tell:
       - When the ball is being carried vs passed vs dropped vs dropped
       for a kick
       - What the forward speed of the passer is immediately before the
       pass
       - What the forward speed of the ball is immediately after the
       pass
       - How to account for a pass out of the tackle where the ball
       carrier is decelerating
       And so on
       It’s not insurmountable, but it looks to me more like a machine
       learning challenge than something you can directly programme.
       That suggests that you need a large body of data to work from -
       so you’d need to have the balls with sensors (and possibly
       sensors on the players) out in the game and widespread to build
       a big enough pool of data to get reliable results.
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