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#Post#: 95963--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wasps may be relegated, according to the Telegraph
DIR By: Brown Bottle
Date: September 23, 2022, 4:01 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: D-Quins link ---
>
> Fewer games equals less revenue simple fact. BT will want to
drop their fee if they get less hours of coverage.
>
> The issue is how do we increase revenue, how do we squeeze
more out of BT for the TV rights, more for the international
rights etc. If you look at top flight football per thousand
viewers they get much more. Rugby is supposed to have a more
affluent demographic that watch it so should be worth more per
view
>
> UK rights 1.6bn per season 200 live matches = 8 million per
match. or 88k per minute. Average viewer number 1.9m = 4.6p per
viewer minute
>
> BT 40m per season 69 live games = 0.57 million per match or
7.2k per minute average number of viewers per match 210k. 3.4p
per viewer minute.
>
> These are UK main rights only I have excluded international
rights.
>
> If we could get the same amount for each viewer minute as
football it would be over a 1m extra for each club. That would
go a long way at the moment. However is this not what CVC were
supposed to be doing getting the PRL better rights deals
>
--- End Quote ---
Do your figures take into account the fact that the 6 Nations
is on free to air and gets a massive audience compared to any
other rugby?
#Post#: 95985--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wasps may be relegated, according to the Telegraph
DIR By: KentQuin
Date: September 23, 2022, 7:31 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: D-Quins link ---
>
> Fewer games equals less revenue simple fact. BT will want to
drop their fee if they get less hours of coverage.
>
> The issue is how do we increase revenue, how do we squeeze
more out of BT for the TV rights, more for the international
rights etc. If you look at top flight football per thousand
viewers they get much more. Rugby is supposed to have a more
affluent demographic that watch it so should be worth more per
view
>
> UK rights 1.6bn per season 200 live matches = 8 million per
match. or 88k per minute. Average viewer number 1.9m = 4.6p per
viewer minute
>
> BT 40m per season 69 live games = 0.57 million per match or
7.2k per minute average number of viewers per match 210k. 3.4p
per viewer minute.
>
> These are UK main rights only I have excluded international
rights.
>
> If we could get the same amount for each viewer minute as
football it would be over a 1m extra for each club. That would
go a long way at the moment. However is this not what CVC were
supposed to be doing getting the PRL better rights deals
>
--- End Quote ---
The counter argument is that more games has just diluted the
quality of the product. And that less, more meaningful games
with the star names involved will be a bigger draw for the
casual viewer and drive up audience numbers.
And whilst BT may reduce their total overall offer, the income
per game/club would increase.
#Post#: 95986--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wasps may be relegated, according to the Telegraph
DIR By: D-Quins
Date: September 23, 2022, 8:03 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi,
The figures for the Premiership were obtained from
HTML https://www.broadcastnow.co.uk/broadcasting/itv-and-bt-break-premiership-rugby-viewing-record/5172010.article#:~:text=A%20cumulative%20average%20audience%20of,million%20tuning%20into%20ITV's%20highlights.
The figures do not include any 6Nations games as this is not
comparing apples with apples. The figures compare top club
games and tries to compare the cost to the broadcasters of
viewer minutes. The breakdown of the audience advertising
classification was not attempted as there is no freely available
resource for this.
As I understand it there is no way that a free to air
broadcaster would be able to match the money from the
subscription boardcasters, much as I would like to see the games
of a free to air service.
Less games may increase the income per game that is a reasonable
argument, however the over heads of running a club would
unlikely decrease in proportion. The stadium will still cost
much the same to maintain, the same number of medics, trainers,
coaches and admin staff are likely to still be needed. We need
more people viewing the game on TV and in person. That means a
bigger stadium as we appear to be bale to sell out each week.
Gone are the days from when I first watched Quins in 2003 of
3,000 being a good crowd. I remember when we went through 3000
season ticket holders.
We need a 30,000 stadium and to get 20,000 to 25,000 minimum per
game. The extra money per game would put us in a good place
#Post#: 95989--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wasps may be relegated, according to the Telegraph
DIR By: Brown Bottle
Date: September 23, 2022, 8:24 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: D-Quins link ---
>
> Fewer games equals less revenue simple fact. BT will want to
drop their fee if they get less hours of coverage.
>
> The issue is how do we increase revenue, how do we squeeze
more out of BT for the TV rights, more for the international
rights etc. If you look at top flight football per thousand
viewers they get much more. Rugby is supposed to have a more
affluent demographic that watch it so should be worth more per
view
>
> UK rights 1.6bn per season 200 live matches = 8 million per
match. or 88k per minute. Average viewer number 1.9m = 4.6p per
viewer minute
>
> BT 40m per season 69 live games = 0.57 million per match or
7.2k per minute average number of viewers per match 210k. 3.4p
per viewer minute.
>
> These are UK main rights only I have excluded international
rights.
>
> If we could get the same amount for each viewer minute as
football it would be over a 1m extra for each club. That would
go a long way at the moment. However is this not what CVC were
supposed to be doing getting the PRL better rights deals
>
--- End Quote ---
Ok, so UK rights = football and BT = rugby?
#Post#: 95990--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wasps may be relegated, according to the Telegraph
DIR By: NorthernQuin
Date: September 23, 2022, 8:29 am
---------------------------------------------------------
So the general consensus seems to be that income is too low and
outgoings are too high. Is that about right?
The line earlier about the 2nd marquee player is interesting,
and telling.
On the debate of reducing matches and the cost to TV coverage,
surely the better solution is:
1. Rearrange the fixtures so that no league matches are on
international weekends - there's no Premier League round ball
matches this weekend due to the Internationals, it's bonkers
that rugby/cricket don't follow this approach.
2. Play the pointless Cup (with Championship expansion?) on
International weeks to motivate those tempted by England matches
to watch a cheap domestic match - £15 for a cup match is good
value (but not on a Weds eve).
3. Get GVC, Prem Rugby, RFU or just anyone for that matter to
invest in the Championship - show Championship matches on the
telly when there's no Premiership. There will be young England
fans that live in Cornwall, Bedford, Nottingham and so on that
have never even thought about their local teams. Theres too much
lack of awareness. A healthy second division helps the French
after all.
Ultimately though, is rugby just trying to grow commercially a
bit too fast?
#Post#: 96244--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wasps may be relegated, according to the Telegraph
DIR By: deadlyfrom5yardsout
Date: September 26, 2022, 2:50 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I like the idea of showing Championship rugby on TV. Preferably
Terrestrial.
#Post#: 96319--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wasps may be relegated, according to the Telegraph
DIR By: East Sussex Chris
Date: September 27, 2022, 1:28 am
---------------------------------------------------------
But no one will watch it, no one watches EFL football
#Post#: 96321--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wasps may be relegated, according to the Telegraph
DIR By: Yareet
Date: September 27, 2022, 1:50 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: NorthernMonkee link ---
>
> So the general consensus seems to be that income is too low
and outgoings are too high. Is that about right?
>
> The line earlier about the 2nd marquee player is interesting,
and telling.
>
> On the debate of reducing matches and the cost to TV coverage,
surely the better solution is:
> 1. Rearrange the fixtures so that no league matches are on
international weekends - there's no Premier League round ball
matches this weekend due to the Internationals, it's bonkers
that rugby/cricket don't follow this approach.
> 2. Play the pointless Cup (with Championship expansion?) on
International weeks to motivate those tempted by England matches
to watch a cheap domestic match - £15 for a cup match is good
value (but not on a Weds eve).
> 3. Get GVC, Prem Rugby, RFU or just anyone for that matter to
invest in the Championship - show Championship matches on the
telly when there's no Premiership. There will be young England
fans that live in Cornwall, Bedford, Nottingham and so on that
have never even thought about their local teams. Theres too much
lack of awareness. A healthy second division helps the French
after all.
>
> Ultimately though, is rugby just trying to grow commercially a
bit too fast?
>
--- End Quote ---
I’ve mentioned this before but:
a) Football can play two games a week. You don’t want Prem Cup
games on a Wednesday night but that’s exactly how the PL avoid
international and club clashes
b) Which games are you dropping?
Prem is 26 weeks
Playoffs are 2
Europe is 4 group and 4 knockout
AIs are 3-4 (usually 4 now)
6N is 7
Summer tours are 4 weeks
That’s at least 50 match weeks required.
Cut the Prem/Europe games and club revenue drops. Cut the Tests
(or even the final) and RFU central funds fall.
#Post#: 96337--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wasps may be relegated, according to the Telegraph
DIR By: Quinston Churchill
Date: September 27, 2022, 6:55 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: NorthernMonkee link ---
>
> So the general consensus seems to be that income is too low
and outgoings are too high. Is that about right?
>
> The line earlier about the 2nd marquee player is interesting,
and telling.
>
> On the debate of reducing matches and the cost to TV coverage,
surely the better solution is:
> 1. Rearrange the fixtures so that no league matches are on
international weekends - there's no Premier League round ball
matches this weekend due to the Internationals, it's bonkers
that rugby/cricket don't follow this approach.
> 2. Play the pointless Cup (with Championship expansion?) on
International weeks to motivate those tempted by England matches
to watch a cheap domestic match - £15 for a cup match is good
value (but not on a Weds eve).
> 3. Get GVC, Prem Rugby, RFU or just anyone for that matter to
invest in the Championship - show Championship matches on the
telly when there's no Premiership. There will be young England
fans that live in Cornwall, Bedford, Nottingham and so on that
have never even thought about their local teams. Theres too much
lack of awareness. A healthy second division helps the French
after all.
>
> Ultimately though, is rugby just trying to grow commercially a
bit too fast?
>
--- End Quote ---
In answer to your basic question … yes. Or perhaps more
accurately, it’s been consistently living beyond its means. The
money players want (and have been getting), is out of step with
the amount of money in the game. Commercially, club rugby is not
an amazing opportunity. Gate receipts are low and eyeballs for
advertisers are not that many more. That means the TV rights
just aren’t worth that much and investors aren’t likely to make
their money back, let alone see a profit. It’s a bit of a
chicken and egg situation as the game needs more fans, but
doesn’t have the budget to invest in the marketing etc. required
to actually get them.
That means the only real way to survive is to cut costs to the
extent they clubs can actually operate in a financially sensible
way.
On the bolded section, Yareet kind of covered this, but
footballers have no problem playing two matches per week. Rugby
players can’t do that. The physicality of the game necessitates
time between games for recovery which dictates the calendar.
Reducing the number of teams in the league is the right thing to
do from a financial and player welfare POV, but it’s a difficult
sell commercially. In other words, trying to argue that BT
should pay the same for the rights for less games is very
unlikely to work.
#Post#: 96340--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wasps may be relegated, according to the Telegraph
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: September 27, 2022, 7:06 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Yup. It has to be both. Fewer matches, lower salaries, a
complete change in how we approach operating costs and financial
oversight, etc. There's no way to "patch" this, it has to be a
sea change in how the sport is run professionally in this
country.
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