DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
ComeAllWithin (Harlequins Rugby)
HTML https://comeallwithin.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: ComeAllWithin Board
*****************************************************
#Post#: 93418--------------------------------------------------
Re: RFU Recommend Ban on TG Women
DIR By: Adrian
Date: July 25, 2022, 9:44 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Brown Bottle link ---
>
> You are wrong. Read the science. 😁
>
--- End Quote ---
I'm OK to accept I am wrong.
#Post#: 93421--------------------------------------------------
Re: RFU Recommend Ban on TG Women
DIR By: Brown Bottle
Date: July 25, 2022, 9:54 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: AdrianB link ---
>
> I'm OK to accept I am wrong.
>
--- End Quote ---
The science may change. 🙂
#Post#: 93422--------------------------------------------------
Re: RFU Recommend Ban on TG Women
DIR By: MaidstoneQuin
Date: July 25, 2022, 10:01 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: AdrianB link ---
>
> I'm OK to accept I am wrong.
>
--- End Quote ---
Overall, Males have on average more muscle mass, which is aided
by the testosterone present.
In addition, men typically have higher ratios of fast twitch
type II muscle fibres, which have the greatest ability to grow
and exert force.
This difference in strength is most pronounced in the upper
body, possibly because women (biological females) distribute
more mass towards the lower body. This would obviously give the
edge to a male to female transition, IF the male was essentially
fully developed without anything to supress
hormones/testosterone etc.
#Post#: 93427--------------------------------------------------
Re: RFU Recommend Ban on TG Women
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: July 25, 2022, 11:13 am
---------------------------------------------------------
My understanding is that this is based on a very small number of
studies with small sample sizes. There don't appear to be any
studies that have actually looked at trans professional
sportspeople, and none that have looked at long term hormone
usage/suppression (they all seem to be 1 year max - trans people
take hormones for the rest of their lives).
Not to say the outcome would be different, but it does appear to
be the case that a lot is being made of very little, and the
encouragement should be "do more science" rather than just "read
the science" because the science is being stretched very thin.
#Post#: 93429--------------------------------------------------
Re: RFU Recommend Ban on TG Women
DIR By: Carbonm
Date: July 25, 2022, 11:18 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> My understanding is that this is based on a very small number
of studies with small sample sizes. There don't appear to be any
studies that have actually looked at trans professional
sportspeople, and none that have looked at long term hormone
usage/suppression (they all seem to be 1 year max - trans people
take hormones for the rest of their lives).
>
> Not to say the outcome would be different, but it does appear
to be the case that a lot is being made of very little, and the
encouragement should be "do more science" rather than just "read
the science" because the science is being stretched very thin.
>
--- End Quote ---
Good point and RFU have said they will continue to review as new
science becomes available.
#Post#: 93430--------------------------------------------------
Re: RFU Recommend Ban on TG Women
DIR By: poorfour
Date: July 25, 2022, 12:07 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I’m genuinely torn about this.
I can see the need to protect players, and I know that male
puberty changes someone’s build and bone structure in permanent
ways. But equally, trans women consistently say they lose a lot
of muscle mass once their testosterone levels have reduced.
There’s also a degree of overlap in size and strength between
the biggest female players and the smaller men’s ones. The
forwards in the England Women’s squad are a similar height and
weight to the smaller outside backs like Marcus, JVP and
Marchant. It’s not a huge overlap, but we’re comfortable with
Marcus being expected to tackle Slipper or Kerevi, who are
significantly bigger than him and likely bigger than most trans
women, too.
I thought that the case-by-case approach was a pretty reasonable
one given the very low numbers of trans athletes. It seems a
shame to be stepping back from that towards a blanket ban.
#Post#: 93433--------------------------------------------------
Re: RFU Recommend Ban on TG Women
DIR By: Mr_B
Date: July 25, 2022, 12:21 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
its a shame to exclude anyone really, it's a minefield for the
legal side of things and discrimination. As this is really just
a safety issue where science seems to show currently (although
not exhaustive data) that Male female transition benefits, then
surely a safety review can be done on a case by case basis. We
are trying to reduce concussion issues with the sport to make it
safer, do you maybe not need some kind of acceptable range of
size/weight restrictions for both men and womens rugby. That way
there is no discrimination, but will mean you dont get the Lomo
advantage. Means you lose the "there's a position for everyone"
in a side attraction for the sport. there is just no easy way to
resolve this, someone will get upset and take it to the courts
no matter what you do.
#Post#: 93441--------------------------------------------------
Re: RFU Recommend Ban on TG Women
DIR By: Mayor West
Date: July 26, 2022, 3:00 am
---------------------------------------------------------
The problem seems to be that you either let every trans person
play or none because of a small number of people that might not
fit the criteria. If, for example, Eben Etzebeth decided to
transition, even if he were to lose 40% strength, how would Lucy
Packer fare if she was to be tackled full on by the still huge
Etzebeth.
Individual assessments would be sensible but rules/laws
tend to be all or nothing.
#Post#: 93456--------------------------------------------------
Re: RFU Recommend Ban on TG Women
DIR By: Quinky
Date: July 26, 2022, 5:45 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Carbonm link ---
>
> I was referring to the 6 or so trans women who were playing
women’s rugby.
>
> Trans men can play mens rugby subject to a risk assessment and
signing a waiver. It doesn’t mention trans women playing with
men but why would they want to play in the men’s team if they
identify as a woman?
>
--- End Quote ---
Because "identifying as a woman" doesn't make them a woman.
If they want to play rugby, they are welcome to play with the
other men.
#Post#: 93457--------------------------------------------------
Re: RFU Recommend Ban on TG Women
DIR By: Quinky
Date: July 26, 2022, 5:49 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: poorfour link ---
>
> I’m genuinely torn about this.
>
> I can see the need to protect players, and I know that male
puberty changes someone’s build and bone structure in permanent
ways. But equally, trans women consistently say they lose a lot
of muscle mass once their testosterone levels have reduced.
>
> There’s also a degree of overlap in size and strength between
the biggest female players and the smaller men’s ones. The
forwards in the England Women’s squad are a similar height and
weight to the smaller outside backs like Marcus, JVP and
Marchant. It’s not a huge overlap, but we’re comfortable with
Marcus being expected to tackle Slipper or Kerevi, who are
significantly bigger than him and likely bigger than most trans
women, too.
>
> I thought that the case-by-case approach was a pretty
reasonable one given the very low numbers of trans athletes. It
seems a shame to be stepping back from that towards a blanket
ban.
>
>
--- End Quote ---
Using that logic, I (as a 6ft 1in, 90+Kg male) should be able to
play against a team of under 14s, simply because a few of them
are similar or bigger than me physically.
In reality, I'd probably end up injuring a fair few of them. And
being embarrassed when they play a lot better than I do.
*****************************************************
Page 3 of 12
DIR Previous Page
DIR Next Page