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#Post#: 93209--------------------------------------------------
Re: Where will Quins finish
DIR By: RodneyRegis
Date: July 21, 2022, 5:20 am
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--- Quote from: Yareet link ---
>
> Tizard may not have been super expensive. I know that there
was lots of chat about cash when he was announced as signing for
Sarries but I would imagine that the deal may have been done
pretty early in the season.
>
> Sarries probably knew that Swinson was in his last year as he
came out of retirement for this season (hence I don't think he
will have cost much). Tizard is only 22 so may well have been on
an academy contract at Quins in 21/22 and was looking for his
first full contract.
>
> If Sarries approached him before Xmas and offered him
£50,000/year more than Quins were for 22/23 and beyond, I can
see how he might be won over especially with the chance to play
with Itoje.
>
> He then goes on to have a stellar season, the signing is
announced in Spring and we all assume he's moved for mega bucks.
>
> Likewise, Isiekwe apparently signed a 3-year contract in 2020.
At the time, he hadn't played for England since being subbed off
in the first half of his maiden test start in 2017. Not exactly
a strong position to claim you're an England player.
>
>
>
--- End Quote ---
Possibly, but then why wouldn't we have offered him more?
#Post#: 93210--------------------------------------------------
Re: Where will Quins finish
DIR By: RodneyRegis
Date: July 21, 2022, 5:24 am
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Also, all the well-thought out squads minus internationals above
don't take injuries into acocunt. You throw in 3 or 4 mid-long
term injuries in our squad and we really are scraping the
barrel, which is the case for most teams in the league - all in
fact, except for...
#Post#: 93211--------------------------------------------------
Re: Where will Quins finish
DIR By: Yareet
Date: July 21, 2022, 5:25 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
>
> By the time Saracens would've approached him he'd have known
his future at Quins was secure, We may hope that was the case
but we cannot know it unless we were party to the talks Quins
had with Tizard.
> the club were champions and had a great rep, agreed
> and everyone was aware he was a huge talent. I'm not 100%
convinced by this as I don't recall any mention of him outside
Quins circles. Certainly not when compared with the likes of
Smith, Itoje and the Curries when they were coming through
>
> He'd already played 11 matches by Xmas. So yeah, Sarries
would've had to have outbid us by quite a bit. Which I'm sure
happened! I'm sure Sarries paid more but I guess I feel maybe
not as much more as they would have to now
>
> By the start of the 2020 season - when he went on loan to
Northampton - Isiekwe was only 22 and already had well over 100
appearances for _that_ Saracens side. Eddie Jones aside, he was
very clearly international class. The fact that he'd already
picked up two caps as a 19 year old was testament to that.
George Martin was capped by Eddie at 19. Personally, I don't
think he is "clearly international class". For me, the jury's
still out on Will Joseph - also capped at 19.
>
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 93213--------------------------------------------------
Re: Where will Quins finish
DIR By: Yareet
Date: July 21, 2022, 5:27 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: RodneyRegis link ---
>
> Possibly, but then why wouldn't we have offered him more?
>
--- End Quote ---
Because he'd already agreed to sign for Sarries for the chance
to form a partnership with Itoje? Because Quins are already
spending any extra cash on Smith so had nothing spare?
#Post#: 93214--------------------------------------------------
Re: Where will Quins finish
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: July 21, 2022, 5:27 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: TomBuckQuin link ---
> It's also largely how it isn't for Quins in almost every
position other than 12. Which is kind of my point. Every squad
has perceived "weak positions" - I'd argue Sarries have depth
weaknesses at:
>
> - Prop - Barrington and Koch both gone, Bello & Judge as
replacements is a pretty obvious downgrade, Riccioni will be
away for international windows, quite possibly Mako too
> - Back row - Reffell will be a big loss, Venter released,
Vunipola back in the England picture, wouldn't be surprised to
see Earl called up and Christie has been looked at by Scotland
so they could struggle here for large parts of the season
> - SH - Looks like they're stuck with the underperforming
Davies, along with van Zyl who's been uninspiring
>
--- End Quote ---
Are you confusing your Reffells? Sean has 15 starts in 4
seasons. He's not really been much of anything at Saracens.
Venter? He's a Championship player who barely played for them.
Saying they have depth issues because too many of their players
might get called up somewhat makes my point for me, no? :-)
Having Billy, Christie, Earl, McFarland, Wray, Isiekwe as their
back row options is still hugely impressive.
SH - Davies and van Zyl are still capped internationals. Agreed
Davies is looking shaky and it's an area of comparative weakness
for Saracens.
I agree regarding their front row, I made that point before I
think. But Eroni Mawi has 14 caps for Fiji, Riccioni has 18 caps
for Italy and Pifileti has 8 for USA - these aren't total
unknowns.
Quins outside of 12 have 3 academy options at hooker, 3 uncapped
locks (one good young player in the process of kicking on, one
unknown South African from Italy, one academy tyro) and a South
African with a solitary cap who barely peformed last season, 3
sub-international level blindsides, genuine strength at 7
(though none of them are capped), 2 sub-international level
number 8s (ok, Taulani has 2 Tonga caps, but you know what I
mean!), and some very good club players who may or may not be
international quality either now or in future.
I'm not doing Quins down here, I think we have a lot of talent,
but there's a lot of hope that the very inexperienced and/or
academy guys will kick on as we hope they will. I think it's a
really exciting bunch of players! And, if they all turn out to
be good, we'll lose some of them because we won't be able to
keep them all under the salary cap.
--- Quote ---
>
> For all the internationals you can name in the Sarries squad,
it has meant they haven't been able to bolster those weaker
positions - presumably because of that salary cap people still
believe they might be swerving. It's up to other teams to
exploit that on matchday - just as teams might look at our 12
channel as an opportunity when Andre's away. I'm an optimist so
I predict Anyanwu will be one of our breakthrough players this
coming season and hold the fort during international periods.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thing is, I can name experienced internationals or at worst
international quality players in most positions even after you
take out their top international players. And the rest are
either hugely experienced club guys like Wray or England U20
players. So yeah, without those big name players, they can still
put out internationals at loosehead, hooker, tighthead, at least
one lock, blindside, number 8, scrum half (and sub), 10, 12, 13,
14, 15. So those weaker positions aren't exactly huge problems
for them!
Which is mad. They can lose Itoje, George, Mako Vunipola, Billy
Vunipola, Farrell, Tompkins and still do that. In a season where
the salary cap has been dramatically reduced.
Remarkable stuff.
#Post#: 93215--------------------------------------------------
Re: Where will Quins finish
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: July 21, 2022, 5:36 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Yareet link ---
>
> By the time Saracens would've approached him he'd have known
his future at Quins was secure, We may hope that was the case
but we cannot know it unless we were party to the talks Quins
had with Tizard.
> the club were champions and had a great rep, agreed
> and everyone was aware he was a huge talent. I'm not 100%
convinced by this as I don't recall any mention of him outside
Quins circles. Certainly not when compared with the likes of
Smith, Itoje and the Curries when they were coming through
>
> He'd already played 11 matches by Xmas. So yeah, Sarries
would've had to have outbid us by quite a bit. Which I'm sure
happened! I'm sure Sarries paid more but I guess I feel maybe
not as much more as they would have to now
>
> By the start of the 2020 season - when he went on loan to
Northampton - Isiekwe was only 22 and already had well over 100
appearances for _that_ Saracens side. Eddie Jones aside, he was
very clearly international class. The fact that he'd already
picked up two caps as a 19 year old was testament to that.
George Martin was capped by Eddie at 19. Personally, I don't
think he is "clearly international class". For me, the jury's
still out on Will Joseph - also capped at 19.
>
--- End Quote ---
Tizard was getting talked up every week by BT, was a starting
lock for the champions, and was putting in big performances.
There's also no way that Quins didn't rate him given the faith
they'd shown in him.
As for Martin and Joseph - well, Joseph is quite obviously a
serious talent in the making, and Martin was a bonkers
selection, but after getting called up Isiekwe continued to put
in performance after performance for a salary cap breaking
Saracens side stuffed to the gills with international talent, so
I don't think that's a reasonable argument at all.
21 year old George Martin has started 28 matches for Tigers in 3
seasons. In just the season he was called up, Isiekwe started
25, including all their major knockout matches, for that
Saracens side.
Will Joseph has barely played for Irish. He's only had 3 starts,
all in the Prem Cup.
I don't think you can point to those guys as a way to diminish
Isiekwe's "international class" talent as a youngster, even if
you don't remember Isiekwe's performances!
#Post#: 93216--------------------------------------------------
Re: Where will Quins finish
DIR By: never sleep
Date: July 21, 2022, 5:36 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Lets understand why Sarries were punished and relegated.
It is not due to them breaking the salary cap.
(I think that Saracens have always maintained that they are
innocent.)
It is due to them not cooperating with the audit and opening
their books.
I do not think that the punishment was correct.
I think that there should have been an additional proviso that
they couldn't rejoin the Premiership until they opened their
books for forensic audit.
That way, it would have been clear what they had done and also,
it would be clear that they were no longer breaking the cap (if
they were in deed doing so).
So, in my opinion -
- without an opening of their books
- and (if they did exceed the cap) without issuing a full
apology
then it is difficult for me to fully move on.
#Post#: 93217--------------------------------------------------
Re: Where will Quins finish
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: July 21, 2022, 5:38 am
---------------------------------------------------------
They were punished for violating the salary cap with their dodgy
business dealings with players. They were then relegated because
of their refusal to open their books.
#Post#: 93218--------------------------------------------------
Re: Where will Quins finish
DIR By: never sleep
Date: July 21, 2022, 5:42 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> They were punished for violating the salary cap with their
dodgy business dealings with players. They were then relegated
because of their refusal to open their books.
>
--- End Quote ---
Cheers Jammy - clearly my memory is not 100% correct.
- but , i don't think it takes anything out of the rest of my
post . . .
#Post#: 93220--------------------------------------------------
Re: Where will Quins finish
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: July 21, 2022, 5:43 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: never sleep link ---
>
> Cheers Jammy - clearly my memory is not 100% correct.
> - but , i don't think it takes anything out of the rest of my
post . . .
>
--- End Quote ---
Just wanted to clarify the "they weren't punished for breaking
the salary cap" bit! :-)
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