DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
ComeAllWithin (Harlequins Rugby)
HTML https://comeallwithin.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: ComeAllWithin Board
*****************************************************
#Post#: 93190--------------------------------------------------
Re: Where will Quins finish
DIR By: FatQuin
Date: July 21, 2022, 3:25 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I didn’t ask you and I don’t agree with you. It really doesn’t
need an essay. Just don’t tell people to ‘move on’. It’s up to
me if I do that and I choose not to. I’m sure you’ll live.
#Post#: 93192--------------------------------------------------
Re: Where will Quins finish
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: July 21, 2022, 3:29 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: TomBuckQuin link ---
>
> Here's what we'd look like if we lost 7 international
players...
>
> 1 Kerrod/SGB/Baxter
> 2 Riley/Musk/Head
> 3 Collier/Louw
> 4 Lamb/Herbst
> 5 Lewies/Hammond
> 6 Lawday/Jurevicius/White
> 7 Kenningham/Evans/Wallace
> 8 Chisholm/Taulani
>
> 9 Gjaltema/Steele/Stafford
> 10 Edwards/Allan
> 11 Murley/Morris
> 12 Anyanwu/Hyde/Bradley
> 13 Northmore/Beard
> 14 Lynagh/Cleaves
> 15 Green/David
>
> That's with: Marler, Walker, Dombrandt, Care, Smith,
Esterhuizen, Marchant (7) missing.
>
> I really don't think Sarries' squad depth is as scary as
people are making out. Quoting players like Duncan Taylor -
whilst technically an international - is patently grasping at
straws.
--- End Quote ---
Why's that grasping at straws? He's a fine, international-class
player who when fit is an excellent choice. He has 28 caps for
Scotland!
--- Quote ---
> And just having internationals does not a Prem-winning team
make. Add to that the fact that I haven't put duplicate names in
brackets like you did to try and make it look like there are
more options than there actually are and I really don't think
there's much between a lot of the top Prem teams in terms of
actual depth of talent available in squads.
>
--- End Quote ---
?! That's a weird accusation. I pretty obviously was trying to
say who the next preferred option would be in that position, and
in some cases they'd want to swap players around. If I was just
going to list all available players for the spot I'd have linked
to their website. If someone can play lock and 6 to a high
standard I'm going to list them as being an option for both
positions!
Anyway - your team looks good but you've got 16 players in there
who are very inexperienced and who have at best a handful of
games for Quins. You've got 3 academy kids as your options for
12. That's fine, that's how it should be. It's largely how it
isn't for Sarries, and that's the point.
#Post#: 93194--------------------------------------------------
Re: Where will Quins finish
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: July 21, 2022, 3:33 am
---------------------------------------------------------
To answer your question:
--- Quote ---
> I'm still yet to understand exactly what people want to see
happen with Saracens, the club (and please, for Heaven's sake,
don't start bleating about the Wray family). In reality, all I
can glean from most people on here is that the club would need
to go under before you can sleep easy at night - unless you can
tell me what else would satisfy you that they're "no longer
benefitting" and the game is worth watching again. Oh, hang on,
we're all still here watching it... Can't have ruined it for you
that much.
--- End Quote ---
I think their collection of heavily capped internationals is
wildly skewed compared with the rest of the league - caps matter
because they impact wages - and I think there's a fair chance
players are still being paid under their market value as a
result. I have no faith that this is occurring out of altruistic
desire by the players and considering Saracens refused to open
the books I think it's still very suspicious. Until something
happens - either their squad reverts to something more akin to
the rest of the top sides in the league, or some sort of
financial transparency - then I'd be foolish to just assume they
were doing everything by the book. I did that last time, and it
blew up in my face.
#Post#: 93195--------------------------------------------------
Re: Where will Quins finish
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: July 21, 2022, 3:45 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Yareet link ---
>
> That for me has been the big difference for Sarries between
pre- and post-relegation.
>
> During the period in which they they were found to have been
working outside the cap, Sarries were able to call on a
suspiciously impressive bench. Now, there seems to be more
believability that the whole XXIII fits under the cap.
>
> Take second row as an example. Pre-sanction, they had Itoje
and Kruis with Skelton on the bench. For the recent final it was
Itoje and Isiekwe with Christie (or Wray) on the bench.
>
> I’d say that marks a considerable step down.
>
--- End Quote ---
Well, that's why they signed a future international from the
champions.
Their squad prior to relegation was absurd, obviously, but Itoje
+ Isiekwe is still one world class player and another who is in
the top tier in this country who is picking up caps for England.
You also forgot they could call upon another international in
Tim Swinson. McFarland can also play lock but he was just a
canny signing and I don't class him as being expensive - yet.
With the salary cap reductions, Saracens are still an outlier
and that'll only be more obvious next season when their options
are "England legend, England player, best young lock in the
league, one of the best young 6s in the league who can play
lock, plus Callum Hunter-Hill".
That's better than anyone else in the league, I think.
#Post#: 93197--------------------------------------------------
Re: Where will Quins finish
DIR By: deadlyfrom5yardsout
Date: July 21, 2022, 3:54 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Sarries have restarted from a somewhat stronger position than
they would have been without the financial naughtiness. They
took their punishment, which turns out to just have been a speed
bump and are straight back to the top of the tree.
If it smells like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a
duck.....
#Post#: 93202--------------------------------------------------
Re: Where will Quins finish
DIR By: Yareet
Date: July 21, 2022, 4:41 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> Well, that's why they signed a future international from the
champions.
>
> Their squad prior to relegation was absurd, obviously, but
Itoje + Isiekwe is still one world class player and another who
is in the top tier in this country who is picking up caps for
England. You also forgot they could call upon another
international in Tim Swinson. McFarland can also play lock but
he was just a canny signing and I don't class him as being
expensive - yet.
>
> With the salary cap reductions, Saracens are still an outlier
and that'll only be more obvious next season when their options
are "England legend, England player, best young lock in the
league, one of the best young 6s in the league who can play
lock, plus Callum Hunter-Hill".
>
> That's better than anyone else in the league, I think.
>
--- End Quote ---
Tizard may not have been super expensive. I know that there was
lots of chat about cash when he was announced as signing for
Sarries but I would imagine that the deal may have been done
pretty early in the season.
Sarries probably knew that Swinson was in his last year as he
came out of retirement for this season (hence I don't think he
will have cost much). Tizard is only 22 so may well have been on
an academy contract at Quins in 21/22 and was looking for his
first full contract.
If Sarries approached him before Xmas and offered him
£50,000/year more than Quins were for 22/23 and beyond, I can
see how he might be won over especially with the chance to play
with Itoje.
He then goes on to have a stellar season, the signing is
announced in Spring and we all assume he's moved for mega bucks.
Likewise, Isiekwe apparently signed a 3-year contract in 2020.
At the time, he hadn't played for England since being subbed off
in the first half of his maiden test start in 2017. Not exactly
a strong position to claim you're an England player.
#Post#: 93204--------------------------------------------------
Re: Where will Quins finish
DIR By: TomBuckQuin
Date: July 21, 2022, 4:48 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: FatQuin link ---
>
> I didn’t ask you and I don’t agree with you. It really
doesn’t need an essay. Just don’t tell people to ‘move on’.
It’s up to me if I do that and I choose not to. I’m sure you’ll
live.
>
--- End Quote ---
Don't worry, me living was never thrown into doubt because of
your grudge. I do find it interesting that you either couldn't
or don't want to answer any of the questions I put to you in an
attempt to understand your position better - which suggests even
you don't understand why you're still feeling the way you're
feeling. At least Jammy's up for a conversation - whereas you've
just come here and found another opportunity to spout the
implied "surely Sarries' squad still isn't within the salary
cap" nonsense. But as you say, we don't agree, which is fine -
and seeing as you apparently don't want to have a grown-up
conversation about it then we can just leave it there.
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> Anyway - your team looks good but you've got 16 players in
there who are very inexperienced and who have at best a handful
of games for Quins. You've got 3 academy kids as your options
for 12. That's fine, that's how it should be. It's largely how
it isn't for Sarries, and that's the point.
>
--- End Quote ---
It's also largely how it isn't for Quins in almost every
position other than 12. Which is kind of my point. Every squad
has perceived "weak positions" - I'd argue Sarries have depth
weaknesses at:
- Prop - Barrington and Koch both gone, Bello & Judge as
replacements is a pretty obvious downgrade, Riccioni will be
away for international windows, quite possibly Mako too
- Back row - Reffell will be a big loss, Venter released,
Vunipola back in the England picture, wouldn't be surprised to
see Earl called up and Christie has been looked at by Scotland
so they could struggle here for large parts of the season
- SH - Looks like they're stuck with the underperforming Davies,
along with van Zyl who's been uninspiring
For all the internationals you can name in the Sarries squad, it
has meant they haven't been able to bolster those weaker
positions - presumably because of that salary cap people still
believe they might be swerving. It's up to other teams to
exploit that on matchday - just as teams might look at our 12
channel as an opportunity when Andre's away. I'm an optimist so
I predict Anyanwu will be one of our breakthrough players this
coming season and hold the fort during international periods.
#Post#: 93205--------------------------------------------------
Re: Where will Quins finish
DIR By: T-Bone
Date: July 21, 2022, 4:53 am
---------------------------------------------------------
A load of Sarries players got houses, investment in their
business and other perks. They have not had to repay any of
that, so they continue to benefit. They can now keep all those
players, pay them a lower salary to keep under the cap, but
still be benefitting from their cheating as those players would
not have stayed had they not already been given such a leg up.
I'm not saying they're sill getting all those extra benefits -
I'd hope that they have stopped, but it's not hard to imagine
that Farrell and co will stay loyal to Sarries and maybe accept
a slightly lower wage for the last few years of their careers as
they've already benefitted so much.
When the likes of Goode, Farrell, Vunipolas, Daly, etc move on,
then I will consider them to no longer be benefitting from their
cheating.
I don't see why people shouldn't moan about the continued
involvement of the Wray family. It's all part of their refusal
to acknowledge any sport of guilt.
It also doesn't help that so many pundits think they've been
harshly treated and talk of last season like some sort of
redemption mission. Like they were some sort of underdog
fighting against the bad hand they'd been dealt. Not just Jones,
who's a colossal prat, but others who are usually more balanced
and reasonable
#Post#: 93206--------------------------------------------------
Re: Where will Quins finish
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: July 21, 2022, 5:01 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Yareet link ---
>
> Tizard may not have been super expensive. I know that there
was lots of chat about cash when he was announced as signing for
Sarries but I would imagine that the deal may have been done
pretty early in the season.
>
> Sarries probably knew that Swinson was in his last year as he
came out of retirement for this season (hence I don't think he
will have cost much). Tizard is only 22 so may well have been on
an academy contract at Quins in 21/22 and was looking for his
first full contract.
>
> If Sarries approached him before Xmas and offered him
£50,000/year more than Quins were for 22/23 and beyond, I can
see how he might be won over especially with the chance to play
with Itoje.
>
> He then goes on to have a stellar season, the signing is
announced in Spring and we all assume he's moved for mega bucks.
>
> Likewise, Isiekwe apparently signed a 3-year contract in 2020.
At the time, he hadn't played for England since being subbed off
in the first half of his maiden test start in 2017. Not exactly
a strong position to claim you're an England player.
>
--- End Quote ---
Can't argue with any of those as they're basically facts but the
context matters - Tizard played 11 matches last season, we won
the league, and then he was a mainstay this season. By the time
Saracens would've approached him he'd have known his future at
Quins was secure, the club were champions and had a great rep,
and everyone was aware he was a huge talent. He'd already played
11 matches by Xmas. So yeah, Sarries would've had to have outbid
us by quite a bit. Which I'm sure happened!
By the start of the 2020 season - when he went on loan to
Northampton - Isiekwe was only 22 and already had well over 100
appearances for _that_ Saracens side. Eddie Jones aside, he was
very clearly international class. The fact that he'd already
picked up two caps as a 19 year old was testament to that.
#Post#: 93207--------------------------------------------------
Re: Where will Quins finish
DIR By: Surbiton Quin
Date: July 21, 2022, 5:09 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: TomBuckQuin link ---
>
> I do find it interesting that you either couldn't or don't
want to answer any of the questions I put to you in an attempt
to understand your position better - which suggests even you
don't understand why you're still feeling the way you're feeling
>
--- End Quote ---
Did I miss the rule on the internet where you have to answer all
questions thrown at you to the satisfaction of the person asking
the question?
When answering I want sufficiently argued logical reasons and
all citations should be referenced by the Havard method
*****************************************************
Page 4 of 6
DIR Previous Page
DIR Next Page