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#Post#: 93165--------------------------------------------------
Re: Where will Quins finish
DIR By: TomBuckQuin
Date: July 20, 2022, 9:35 am
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--- Quote from: Ozzie link ---
>
> Only sometimes?
>
> The league table is meaningless when they are in it.
>
--- End Quote ---
Ugh, let's do this again.
When you put together a combined Sarries/Quins XV in a
hypothetical "everyone's fit and firing" scenario it becomes
quite clear that their squad isn't actually that stand-out...
1 Marler
2 George
3 Collier (Koch gone)
4 Itoje
5 Tizard (okay I'll give this one to them, as we're now looking
forward)
6 MacFarland/Chisholm
7 Earl/Evans/Kenningham
8 Dombrandt/Vunipola
9 Care
10 Smith/Farrell
11 Murley
12 Esterhuizen
13 Marchant
14 Malins
15 Green
Where there's decent competition across both clubs I've put
multiple options in. Pack is pretty well contested - Sarries
shading it. Our backline has loads more talent. Call it bias if
you want but I'm taking Esterhuizen over Tompkins, Marchant over
Daly, Green over Goode every single time. Farrell is in there
with Marcus because he's a classy operator for Sarries, but I'm
still glad we are the ones who have Marcus.
For me, it's not actually their squad that makes them so
impressive - yes they have some serious players, but I genuinely
believe Mark McCall has mastered the art of making the sum
greater than its parts.
Yes, they cheated. Yes, it was bad. Yes, other teams potentially
lost out on Prem trophies because of it. But it's a pretty fair
assumption that they're now playing by the salary cap rules -
and they're still seen as the team to beat. Quit moaning about
them and instead - may I suggest - get excited about what Quins'
next few years could look like with the players we have if we
can find a similar formula to the one McCall has going on...
#Post#: 93166--------------------------------------------------
Re: Where will Quins finish
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: July 20, 2022, 9:36 am
---------------------------------------------------------
If the absolute worst happend and Sarries lose Mako, Billy,
George, Itoje, Farrell, Tompkins, Malins long term they can
still put this side out:
1: Adams-Hale (or Mawi)
2: Woolstencroft (or Lewis or Pifeleti)
3: Riccio (or Clarey)
4/5: Tizard/Isiekwe (or Hunter-Hill or McFarland)
6: McFarland (or Christie or Isiekwe)
7: Wray (or Earl)
8: Earl (or Wray)
9: Davies (or van Zyl)
10: Lozowski (or Vunipola or Goode)
11: Lewington (or Segun)
12: Morris (or Lozowski or Taylor)
13: Daly (or Taylor or Morris)
14: Maitland (or Daly)
15: Goode (or Daly)
They'd be a bit light up front but there's still a heap of
talent there including a couple of Lions and a bunch of other
internationals.
I can't imagine we'd look that good if we lost 7 front line
players. There's at least 6 players in that lineup who'd be
starting at most other clubs IMO (Tizard, Isiekwe, Earl,
Lozowski, Daly, Goode). It'd take another plague to get them to
look actually weak!
#Post#: 93168--------------------------------------------------
Re: Where will Quins finish
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: July 20, 2022, 9:46 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: TomBuckQuin link ---
>
> Ugh, let's do this again.
>
> When you put together a combined Sarries/Quins XV in a
hypothetical "everyone's fit and firing" scenario it becomes
quite clear that their squad isn't actually that stand-out...
>
> 1 Marler
> 2 George
> 3 Collier (Koch gone)
> 4 Itoje
> 5 Tizard (okay I'll give this one to them, as we're now
looking forward)
> 6 MacFarland/Chisholm
> 7 Earl/Evans/Kenningham
> 8 Dombrandt/Vunipola
>
> 9 Care
> 10 Smith/Farrell
> 11 Murley
> 12 Esterhuizen
> 13 Marchant
> 14 Malins
> 15 Green
>
> Where there's decent competition across both clubs I've put
multiple options in. Pack is pretty well contested - Sarries
shading it. Our backline has loads more talent. Call it bias if
you want but I'm taking Esterhuizen over Tompkins, Marchant over
Daly, Green over Goode every single time. Farrell is in there
with Marcus because he's a classy operator for Sarries, but I'm
still glad we are the ones who have Marcus.
>
> For me, it's not actually their squad that makes them so
impressive - yes they have some serious players, but I genuinely
believe Mark McCall has mastered the art of making the sum
greater than its parts.
>
> Yes, they cheated. Yes, it was bad. Yes, other teams
potentially lost out on Prem trophies because of it. But it's a
pretty fair assumption that they're now playing by the salary
cap rules - and they're still seen as the team to beat. Quit
moaning about them and instead - may I suggest - get excited
about what Quins' next few years could look like with the
players we have if we can find a similar formula to the one
McCall has going on...
>
--- End Quote ---
We played a semi-final against them a few months ago.
--- Quote ---
> Totals in starting XV
> Saracens - 15 capped players, 599 Tier 1 international caps,
29 Lions caps, 2 Tier 2 caps - average 40 Tier 1 national caps
per player
> Harlequins - 9 capped players, 236 Tier 1 international caps -
average 16 Tier 1 national caps per player
--- End Quote ---
+ they were able to have Lozowski, Taylor, Isiekwe on the bench!
Obviously our first XV proved they're a match for anyone, but
that's not the point. Not only does the Saracens 1st XV boast
more caps and more capped players than anyone else in the
league, but the guys behind them are often capped internationals
as well.
Their squad has multiple Lions, multiple mainstays of
international sides... it is more impressive than pretty much
every squad I can think of in the Premiership. And when you look
beyond the 1st XV it's even more stark.
#Post#: 93172--------------------------------------------------
Re: Where will Quins finish
DIR By: FatQuin
Date: July 20, 2022, 11:20 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Can’t speak for others but the reason I ‘keep on’ about Saracens
is that their long term cheating skewed the game and they
clearly continue to benefit from it after a paltry sanction and
a non-apology. And I will carry on moaning for as long as I
fancy thanks.
#Post#: 93173--------------------------------------------------
Re: Where will Quins finish
DIR By: TomBuckQuin
Date: July 20, 2022, 11:48 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> If the absolute worst happend and Sarries lose Mako, Billy,
George, Itoje, Farrell, Tompkins, Malins long term they can
still put this side out:
>
> 1: Adams-Hale (or Mawi)
> 2: Woolstencroft (or Lewis or Pifeleti)
> 3: Riccio (or Clarey)
> 4/5: Tizard/Isiekwe (or Hunter-Hill or McFarland)
> 6: McFarland (or Christie or Isiekwe)
> 7: Wray (or Earl)
> 8: Earl (or Wray)
> 9: Davies (or van Zyl)
> 10: Lozowski (or Vunipola or Goode)
> 11: Lewington (or Segun)
> 12: Morris (or Lozowski or Taylor)
> 13: Daly (or Taylor or Morris)
> 14: Maitland (or Daly)
> 15: Goode (or Daly)
>
> They'd be a bit light up front but there's still a heap of
talent there including a couple of Lions and a bunch of other
internationals.
>
> I can't imagine we'd look that good if we lost 7 front line
players. There's at least 6 players in that lineup who'd be
starting at most other clubs IMO (Tizard, Isiekwe, Earl,
Lozowski, Daly, Goode). It'd take another plague to get them to
look actually weak!
>
--- End Quote ---
Here's what we'd look like if we lost 7 international players...
1 Kerrod/SGB/Baxter
2 Riley/Musk/Head
3 Collier/Louw
4 Lamb/Herbst
5 Lewies/Hammond
6 Lawday/Jurevicius/White
7 Kenningham/Evans/Wallace
8 Chisholm/Taulani
9 Gjaltema/Steele/Stafford
10 Edwards/Allan
11 Murley/Morris
12 Anyanwu/Hyde/Bradley
13 Northmore/Beard
14 Lynagh/Cleaves
15 Green/David
That's with: Marler, Walker, Dombrandt, Care, Smith,
Esterhuizen, Marchant (7) missing.
I really don't think Sarries' squad depth is as scary as people
are making out. Quoting players like Duncan Taylor - whilst
technically an international - is patently grasping at straws.
And just having internationals does not a Prem-winning team
make. Add to that the fact that I haven't put duplicate names in
brackets like you did to try and make it look like there are
more options than there actually are and I really don't think
there's much between a lot of the top Prem teams in terms of
actual depth of talent available in squads.
#Post#: 93174--------------------------------------------------
Re: Where will Quins finish
DIR By: Mayor West
Date: July 20, 2022, 12:27 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
A team full of internationals does “ a Prem winning team make” ,
that’s why Salarycens kept winning it. Ugoo’s statement about
our semi a few years ago that we were winning at half time and
they then empty their international bench to our A team one. You
still have to get everybody playing together but it helps if if
you keep winning all the time.
#Post#: 93178--------------------------------------------------
Re: Where will Quins finish
DIR By: poorfour
Date: July 20, 2022, 3:01 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
The key for me is squad depth. The prem teams have lost, on
average, 8 more players from their squads than they have added.
Take out the two teams who’ve maintained squad size and it’s
closer to 10 players. Those two teams are Sarries and Quins -
who are also two of the three with the least overall change in
the squad.
I’d expect Leicester to still be in the mix, but replacing their
fly half and their captain in one season is bound to be
disruptive, especially when they can expect a lot of players to
be called up. Saints might be in a better position.
Quins’ season depends partly on injuries, and partly on who gets
called up. It could be a long list, or it could be a short one,
depending on who is in favour with Eddie and how the other sides
handle their overseas players. But I think the squad stability
will make a big difference for us.
#Post#: 93180--------------------------------------------------
Re: Where will Quins finish
DIR By: Ozzie
Date: July 20, 2022, 3:17 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: FatQuin link ---
>
> Can’t speak for others but the reason I ‘keep on’ about
Saracens is that their long term cheating skewed the game and
they clearly continue to benefit from it after a paltry sanction
and a non-apology. And I will carry on moaning for as long as I
fancy thanks.
>
--- End Quote ---
Exactly!
#Post#: 93184--------------------------------------------------
Re: Where will Quins finish
DIR By: Yareet
Date: July 20, 2022, 5:32 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Mayor West link ---
>
> A team full of internationals does “ a Prem winning team make”
, that’s why Salarycens kept winning it. Ugoo’s statement about
our semi a few years ago that we were winning at half time and
they then empty their international bench to our A team one. You
still have to get everybody playing together but it helps if if
you keep winning all the time.
>
--- End Quote ---
That for me has been the big difference for Sarries between pre-
and post-relegation.
During the period in which they they were found to have been
working outside the cap, Sarries were able to call on a
suspiciously impressive bench. Now, there seems to be more
believability that the whole XXIII fits under the cap.
Take second row as an example. Pre-sanction, they had Itoje and
Kruis with Skelton on the bench. For the recent final it was
Itoje and Isiekwe with Christie (or Wray) on the bench.
I’d say that marks a considerable step down.
#Post#: 93185--------------------------------------------------
Re: Where will Quins finish
DIR By: TomBuckQuin
Date: July 20, 2022, 5:33 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: FatQuin link ---
>
> ...they clearly continue to benefit from it after a paltry
sanction and a non-apology. And I will carry on moaning for as
long as I fancy thanks.
>
--- End Quote ---
Okay, so:
1. What would a proper sanction (that would prevent them from
"continuing to benefit") have looked like in your eyes?
2. Are you really asking me to believe that if they'd have just
apologised (presumably in a way that you deem sincere) you
wouldn't still be sat here whingeing? Give me strength.
The fact is, whether you like it or not, the whole thing is
subjective - e.g. I've made no attempt to hide the fact that I
think the fine and the relegation was a pretty severe
punishment. Yes, I would have liked them to give their trophies
back too - but really, that still wouldn't make a blind bit of
difference to your perception that they continue to benefit now.
I'm still yet to understand exactly what people want to see
happen with Saracens, the club (and please, for Heaven's sake,
don't start bleating about the Wray family). In reality, all I
can glean from most people on here is that the club would need
to go under before you can sleep easy at night - unless you can
tell me what else would satisfy you that they're "no longer
benefitting" and the game is worth watching again. Oh, hang on,
we're all still here watching it... Can't have ruined it for you
that much.
Maybe I'm just too forgiving, but I really do feel that it would
have been a crying shame if the punishment had gone too far
(again, I realise, subjective) and led to Sarries going bankrupt
and the club folding. I, for one, relish the rivalry on the
pitch - and every time we play them, I go into the game
believing we can win.
It wasn't a level playing field in the past, they cheated, they
spent their year in the Champ and paid a fine (plus lost TV
revenue for a year) and now they're back and playing by the
rules (yes, an assumption - but innocent until proven guilty).
IMHO, life's too short to forget that this being a fan business
is supposed to be fun but I absolutely can't and won't stop you
moaning about it if you want, it's your life. Almost 3 years on,
it all just seems disproportionate and utterly futile if you ask
me.
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