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#Post#: 87910--------------------------------------------------
Re: hugh tizard
DIR By: poorfour
Date: April 5, 2022, 4:05 am
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Can we perhaps be a little more grown up about this?
The reduced cap means most clubs are losing players. Quins seem
to have done a very good job of retaining 17 out of 18 they
wanted to keep; I suspect Tizard was always going to be the
hardest to hang onto as he was a clear target for Sarries. He
fills a hole in their squad that would give him a very good
chance at regular game time, whereas at Quins he's competing
with the club captain and Hammond for that role.
Given the injury rate to our locks this season, I suspect we'll
need to make full use of Tiz in the run-in. Though I might be
tempted not to pick him for the seemingly inevitable knock out
game against Sarries.
#Post#: 87911--------------------------------------------------
Re: hugh tizard
DIR By: Twickersman
Date: April 5, 2022, 4:45 am
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--- Quote from: poorfour link ---
>
> Can we perhaps be a little more grown up about this?
>
> The reduced cap means most clubs are losing players. Quins
seem to have done a very good job of retaining 17 out of 18 they
wanted to keep; I suspect Tizard was always going to be the
hardest to hang onto as he was a clear target for Sarries. He
fills a hole in their squad that would give him a very good
chance at regular game time, whereas at Quins he's competing
with the club captain and Hammond for that role.
>
> Given the injury rate to our locks this season, I suspect
we'll need to make full use of Tiz in the run-in. Though I might
be tempted not to pick him for the seemingly inevitable knock
out game against Sarries.
>
--- End Quote ---
I am torn on this. Keep playing Tizard knowing he is playing
super well. Or keep him as a backup and give game time to a
player that is committed to next season at least. Hammond looked
super useful at 6 on the weekend. So at least he is getting game
time there.
I think Dinno Lamb would push Tizard for the starting position,
he was playing so well earlier this season and seems to be on an
upward trajectory as a enforcer and line out option.
#Post#: 87913--------------------------------------------------
Re: hugh tizard
DIR By: poorfour
Date: April 5, 2022, 4:58 am
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I can't remember if we've had this discussion on here or whether
it was on a different board, but I see a distinction between the
4 and 5 roles. The 4 is usually more the enforcer and lineout
disruptor, the 5 is more the setpiece lock and more typically
the primary lineout receiver. The distinction gets blurred when
there are injuries, but it's epitomised by the different roles
that Johnson and Kay or Itoje and Kruis played.
I see Tiz as competing with Hammond and Lewies in that 5 role;
Dino and Symons are the more natural 4s. Jurevicius looks like a
5/6 but that may change as he fills out. We're also seeing the
emergence of some hybrid players who are genuinely capable as
both locks and blindsides - Lawes is the original, George Martin
seems to be in that camp at Leicester and I think Hammond could
do it for Quins (while I don't see it as the right role for
Itoje, at least at international level; he's not fast enough and
is better used as a 4)
#Post#: 87917--------------------------------------------------
Re: hugh tizard
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: April 5, 2022, 5:20 am
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Why would the primary lineout receiver not also be the primary
lineout disruptor?
#Post#: 87918--------------------------------------------------
Re: hugh tizard
DIR By: poorfour
Date: April 5, 2022, 5:29 am
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--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> Why would the primary lineout receiver not also be the primary
lineout disruptor?
>
--- End Quote ---
Different skill sets. If you look at what Itoje and Dino do on
opposition lineout, they react to the throw in real time and try
to get up in front of the receiver to steal the ball on the way
up - that seems to be the most common way of disrupting a
lineout now that most teams have gone to silent lineouts and you
don't get a chance to decode the call.
The more traditional way to do it was to work out what the call
would be (I think it was Martin Johnson who joked that the real
value that Sherylle Calder brought to the team was that she
taught them enough Afrikaans to understand the Bok lineout
calls...) and then get your primary jumper up alongside their
intended receiver, but from what I can see that's become a less
effective way of stealing ball over time.
#Post#: 87925--------------------------------------------------
Re: hugh tizard
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: April 5, 2022, 6:35 am
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Okay, so the idea would be to get the guy who is most athletic
with the longest reach to be the disruptor. Which is often the
primary lineout target, no?
#Post#: 87927--------------------------------------------------
Re: hugh tizard
DIR By: poorfour
Date: April 5, 2022, 6:45 am
---------------------------------------------------------
It seems to be more often the lighter lock who can move faster
and be lifted faster, which is usually the shorter one who isn't
the lineout caller.
#Post#: 87928--------------------------------------------------
Re: hugh tizard
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: April 5, 2022, 7:09 am
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Annoyingly, while the Premiership stats record lineout steals,
they think "lineouts won" is a hooker stat :-(
#Post#: 87930--------------------------------------------------
Re: hugh tizard
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: April 5, 2022, 7:20 am
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Anyway, the Premiership stats have guys like Kitchener, Stooke,
J Hill, de Jager, Coleman, Du Preez as being regular ball
stealers at the lineout - big blokes all - alongside the likes
of Fifita, Sean Robinson, Itoje, Isiekwe, Lewies - which
suggests it's more about aptitude than the enforcer/jumper
dichotomy or particularly size related.
Sean Robinson at 6'4 and 17 1/2 stone is miles in front, with
Graham Kitchener second (6'6 and 19 stone)!
#Post#: 87935--------------------------------------------------
Re: hugh tizard
DIR By: dinsdale
Date: April 5, 2022, 8:15 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> Anyway, the Premiership stats have guys like Kitchener,
Stooke, J Hill, de Jager, Coleman, Du Preez as being regular
ball stealers at the lineout - big blokes all - alongside the
likes of Fifita, Sean Robinson, Itoje, Isiekwe, Lewies - which
suggests it's more about aptitude than the enforcer/jumper
dichotomy or particularly size related.
>
> Sean Robinson at 6'4 and 17 1/2 stone is miles in front, with
Graham Kitchener second (6'6 and 19 stone)!
>
--- End Quote ---
--- Quote from: poorfour link ---
>
> It seems to be more often the lighter lock who can move faster
and be lifted faster, which is usually the shorter one who isn't
the lineout caller.
>
--- End Quote ---
The last time we were consistently good at lineout steals was
when Charlie Matthews was the main man. He was also the primary
target and caller. He's 6'8.
And in the end it wasn't enough to make up for his average play
elsewhere.
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