DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
ComeAllWithin (Harlequins Rugby)
HTML https://comeallwithin.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: ComeAllWithin Board
*****************************************************
#Post#: 86793--------------------------------------------------
O/T Before The Inevitable Pile On.....
DIR By: Banstead Quin
Date: March 19, 2022, 1:12 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
OK, so I'm going big before the game tonight and even if England
pull off a miracle win, the opinion doesn't change.
So when we all see the papers tomorrow and they finally start
writing what most of us have been saying since the 2019 WC
final, I thought I'd get my view in on what England should do
next. As being sacked in sport isn't like being sacked in the
real world, we'll have to pay him off and chuck in a first class
flight to the outback. So what next.
Bearing in mind the RFU are supposedly skint, I think they have
to look for someone who's available so there is no compensation
needed and they can then come straight in with a caretaker remit
of getting England too and through the WC. After the WC, there
will be more availability of coaches and they can make a more
permanent appointment then. Rather than panicking and going to
an inappropriate name like Warren Gatland who would bring his
own version of nonsense and we'd be in the same boat again.
So, I would look at someone like Conor O'Shea. He already has
international experience, he's already at the RFU and has a good
eye on the players who have developed through the age groups. He
also has an eye on the coaches already there and can decide if
they should go or stay and work with them. If they need to go,
he can then look to put hired guns in place, like a John
Kingston type who in an 18 month period can work with the
forwards and get the best out of them. The same with backs,
attack, defence etc but again looking at who is available. This
coaching team can then work with the players to agree a style of
play that works and have a more settled squad, rather than the
Eddie revolving door nightmare.
When we look at the long term view it gives someone like a Steve
Borthwick to get 2 seasons experience with Tigers and we can
then build for the 2027 WC properly.
It may not work for everyone but is no worse than what we have
now, other than it might actually work.
Thoughts?
#Post#: 86796--------------------------------------------------
Re: O/T Before The Inevitable Pile On.....
DIR By: poorfour
Date: March 19, 2022, 1:39 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
O'Shea is already in the setup in what is probably his best role
as Performance Director.
I would have thought Borthwick was the obvious candidate to go
for longer term. If England do dispense with Eddie (and I don't
think they will), O'Shea might step in short term but they would
need a more comprehensive coaching team before the RWC, and that
would likely bring in a new head coach as well
#Post#: 86797--------------------------------------------------
Re: O/T Before The Inevitable Pile On.....
DIR By: MaidstoneQuin
Date: March 19, 2022, 1:58 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
A win for England today would be bad news for the long term as
it would keep the wolves at bay for Eddie and he will go into
overdrive blowing his own trumpet.
I’m not overly fussed who replaces him in the short term, and
would be in favour of maybe a caretaker for the RWC, as I think
EJ has had a year longer than he should already and it may be
too late to massively shake things up.
Hell, I’ll put my hat in the ring. Id at least pick players in
their right positions!
#Post#: 86798--------------------------------------------------
Re: O/T Before The Inevitable Pile On.....
DIR By: Monte
Date: March 19, 2022, 2:27 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
All I ask is no injuries to Marcus, Dommers, Joe x 2 please. No
red cards to make the game a joke.
#Post#: 86808--------------------------------------------------
Re: O/T Before The Inevitable Pile On.....
DIR By: Wirralquin
Date: March 19, 2022, 4:27 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Banstead Quin link ---
>
> OK, so I'm going big before the game tonight and even if
England pull off a miracle win, the opinion doesn't change.
>
> So when we all see the papers tomorrow and they finally start
writing what most of us have been saying since the 2019 WC
final, I thought I'd get my view in on what England should do
next. As being sacked in sport isn't like being sacked in the
real world, we'll have to pay him off and chuck in a first class
flight to the outback. So what next.
>
> Bearing in mind the RFU are supposedly skint, I think they
have to look for someone who's available so there is no
compensation needed and they can then come straight in with a
caretaker remit of getting England too and through the WC. After
the WC, there will be more availability of coaches and they can
make a more permanent appointment then. Rather than panicking
and going to an inappropriate name like Warren Gatland who would
bring his own version of nonsense and we'd be in the same boat
again.
>
> So, I would look at someone like Conor O'Shea. He already has
international experience, he's already at the RFU and has a good
eye on the players who have developed through the age groups. He
also has an eye on the coaches already there and can decide if
they should go or stay and work with them. If they need to go,
he can then look to put hired guns in place, like a John
Kingston type who in an 18 month period can work with the
forwards and get the best out of them. The same with backs,
attack, defence etc but again looking at who is available. This
coaching team can then work with the players to agree a style of
play that works and have a more settled squad, rather than the
Eddie revolving door nightmare.
>
> When we look at the long term view it gives someone like a
Steve Borthwick to get 2 seasons experience with Tigers and we
can then build for the 2027 WC properly.
>
> It may not work for everyone but is no worse than what we have
now, other than it might actually work.
>
> Thoughts?
>
--- End Quote ---
this is a quins board , not an england board , who cares
#Post#: 86811--------------------------------------------------
Re: O/T Before The Inevitable Pile On.....
DIR By: euroquin
Date: March 19, 2022, 4:49 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Wirralquin link ---
>
> this is a quins board , not an england board , who cares
>
--- End Quote ---
I'd be happy to talk about Scotland's performance today...
#Post#: 86813--------------------------------------------------
Re: O/T Before The Inevitable Pile On.....
DIR By: Banstead Quin
Date: March 19, 2022, 4:55 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I can't believe they run broadband under your bridge Wirralquin.
And if you didn't see it, I started the thread with O/T as per
the rules......
#Post#: 86831--------------------------------------------------
Re: O/T Before The Inevitable Pile On.....
DIR By: The Kid
Date: March 20, 2022, 6:40 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Not sure why people are unwilling to engage in this as it’s
clearly marked OT and is still relevant to where our best 4-5
players go off to for half the season at any given time. All
quins fans have a stake in how England play, to a degree,
regardless of international stripes.
The answer to whether jones stays or not depends on the
priorities. If the priority is winning RWC 2023 (which it should
be), then the question you ask yourself is whether that’s
possible with the way we’re going about things at the moment. I
don’t think you can say for now that the answer to that is
definitely no, but you can make the case for it.
I think yesterday showed just how far behind England are *now*
in terms of this quite well, although England weren’t really too
far off the pace in most aspects of the game and are probably
unlucky not to have got closer given the second half this week.
They never got a fair shake against Ireland 15 vs 15 because of
Ewels, but we saw enough in both games that the pack is good
enough to compete against the best. The defence isn’t that far
away either although this wore down in all games. I don’t think
you can say the same for the attack, which is frankly not good
enough at this level and doesn't show signs of being so either.
The attack is a confused mess that can’t sustain phases and
relies on Smith being on his feet to run things, which teams can
key in on to break it down. To me, that’s the only thing that
really needs to change fundamentally about what we’re doing. You
can’t score as few tries as we are now and win a world cup. You
could see what France and Ireland respectively were trying to
do. I have no such conviction about England. It relies too much
on marcus doing something outside of structure and teams can
just key in on him, because Slade and the rest of them can't
beat top defences.
The get-out here Eddie has though though is personnel. We saw in
the autumn what this could look like; Farrell being there gives
you a second playmaker whos defensive positioning is more sound
than Slade’s and he’s a 90% goalkicker which you need to win
games. Tuilagi being there gives you a strike runner with
genuine power, which this England side lacked throughout. A lot
of the deputies aren’t fit or as good. As a result, you get this
huge mess of utility backs with no identity that teams can quite
easily shut down. There is no good alternative, although Jones
has been creative in his use of Steward and players like Genge
to make up for this, to a degree.
I think the caveats around the attack and the personnel he needs
not being fit mean that he gets until RWC 2023 to fix it, but
unless we somehow win it, I think Jones is out regardless. Two
world cups with nothing to show for it with all the resources he
has means time for change, as it would elsewhere.
If you think the answer is no now and you change it, then the
two questions are who else is going to take the job on who you
know will give the players we have now a shot, and also who can
carry the same players and identity through to 2027 (if world
cups are the priority).
I think the answers here are less good. Say England break with
Jones now and hire Erasmus (for sake of argument) until 2023, is
there really enough to work with for someone to get better
results? Are the players there for what they do? Can you reverse
it in 18 months and play a different way well enough to beat SA
France, NZ, or Ireland in a semi final and then see what
happens?
It’s possible. SA did it last time, and England did in the world
cup in 2007 to the tune of a final appearance, but is that
sustainable in the long term? Both of those game plans were
quite limited and our personnel group is quite different to
those sides which have huge physical cores. Complex change won't
happen in 18 months with limited contact time with players, so
we'd have to expect a more limited approach. Does that suit a
Marcus Smith led attack? Probably not.
Or do you give someone less experienced a run at it (Borthwick,
Baxter etc) with a view to developing a side that has limited
expectations in 2023 but sets up to win consistently between
2023-7 (as France have done)? But then there are more questions?
Can a guy like that run a program? With O’Shea running
development in a broader sense, do they even need to? What would
their identity be at the top level? Would Baxter’s possession
game translate? Where does smith fit in to a Borthwick side? Who
solves the lack of strike threat in the backs? Given who we have
there, I think it'd be easier to go for a more NZ like approach
than an SA or france, rather than with someone homegrown. That
won't happen in 18 months either, and they aren't going to light
this world cup on fire.
I don’t think the latter is realistic before 2023 is done and
dusted. If anything, they have to go the interim route now and
then set something up post world cup with that guy (if it works)
or detonate it after 2023 and start afresh like they did with
Lancaster in 2012 and Jones in 2016. Anything else would be
self-immolation, because some of the parts are there and there’s
no need to salt the earth; you can win with this pack and Smith.
The rest is a whole load of question marks with little answers.
It all comes back to the first question, can Jones win the world
cup with these players playing this way in 2023? Personally, I
can see it, but only if there’s a commitment now to a more
structured attack and a clear vision articulated to how that is
delivered. If that conversation goes badly, then it’s for
someone else to answer.
#Post#: 86834--------------------------------------------------
Re: O/T Before The Inevitable Pile On.....
DIR By: never sleep
Date: March 20, 2022, 6:52 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hypothetical question. England lack a number 12.
Would it be possible to retrain someone like Dommers as a 12?
You would need the support of the player's club to do this, so,
it wouldn't work for Alex and Quins as we already have The Giant
in the number 12 spot.
#Post#: 86835--------------------------------------------------
Re: O/T Before The Inevitable Pile On.....
DIR By: The Kid
Date: March 20, 2022, 7:07 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: never sleep link ---
>
> Hypothetical question. England lack a number 12.
> Would it be possible to retrain someone like Dommers as a 12?
You would need the support of the player's club to do this, so,
it wouldn't work for Alex and Quins as we already have The Giant
in the number 12 spot.
>
--- End Quote ---
I think this would work with picking someone younger (Anyanwu,
maybe, as a local example) and giving them regular rugby but not
a position change for an established player.
The fascination with hybrid players switching between backs and
forwards is an English one and it has never worked at the top
level in this country. The idea of switching someone like
Simmonds to play 12 is just as insane as it was starting Burgess
there in similar circumstances in 2015, or any experiments with
Hape or Farrell, A there under Johnno. It's never worked, and I
don't think it ever would; see how exposed Josh Adams was at 13
for Wales or Bergamasco at 9 for italy. You're better off
identifying who that is now in the U20s and making sure they're
developing well and getting regular rugby.
I think they tried this with Lawrence and Jones didn't like what
he saw in camp when he came in to be in the environment. They
did it with Smith at 18 and they're doing it with Lynagh now. No
one at 12 putting their hand up though.
*****************************************************
Page 1 of 4
DIR Next Page