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#Post#: 73895--------------------------------------------------
Re: Barnes: Itoje must replace Farrell
DIR By: raedarius
Date: September 6, 2021, 5:07 am
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I really thought that he'd move beyond all that clapping and
cheering as he matured, but he doesn't seem to have.
#Post#: 73897--------------------------------------------------
Re: Barnes: Itoje must replace Farrell
DIR By: toast
Date: September 6, 2021, 5:24 am
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Don't think EJ will drop Farrell who seems to have a Teflon
coating as even when he is *&*% it does not stick.......
#Post#: 73901--------------------------------------------------
Re: Barnes: Itoje must replace Farrell
DIR By: poorfour
Date: September 6, 2021, 6:27 am
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Farrell's position is secure until a better 12 emerges from
somewhere. Why England don't seem able to produce one, I don't
know.
But I fully expect to see some significant changes to both
tactics and playing personnel for the AIs. People seem to think
that Eddie is stuck on a single path and that the turnover of
coaches is purely a result of the 6N review, but historically he
has frequently changed tactics and coaches mid RWC cycle,
usually after a slump.
I think there's a pretty consistent pattern that he comes up
with a system, plays it to destruction while working out how the
game is changing, and then unveils a new system that is usually
pretty effective at the RWC. In the last cycle, the system and
players that worked in 2016 and (mostly) in 2017 got worked out
in 2018 and he had a run of 5 defeats until the end of the SA
tour - after which he'd put in place a model and team that
carried us to the RWC Final. The playing style of the refreshed
team was very different from the one that went before, in
particular how the forward pods were used and the emphasis on
kick chase. That shake up coincided with a coaching shake up -
lots of people questioned John Mitchell's appointment (and now
they are questioning his departure).
I don't see any sign of him changing that cycle this time
around. No idea what his new tactical model will be, but I
imagine there'll be some surprises. I am hoping that the big one
is that he lets Marcus play what he sees rather than to a
system. He may need a little fine tuning on when it's on versus
when to play safe at international level, but when you have a
player with so many options available to him it is a nightmare
to defend against.
While Eddie has ample form for wanting people to play his way or
not at all, he's also a smart enough coach to make use of the
assets at his disposal. You can see how Cipriani would rub him
up the wrong way, but Smith is far more professional and has a
very low error rate, especially for a player with his level of
creativity. If you have a player who can make those decisions on
the fly and not leave you as a coach tearing what remains of
your hair out, you'll get better results using that than trying
to force it into a pattern.
#Post#: 73910--------------------------------------------------
Re: Barnes: Itoje must replace Farrell
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: September 6, 2021, 7:32 am
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We do produce 12s. Ollie Devoto has been a high impact player
for Exeter. Alex Lozowski was binned by Eddie off of one bad
match. Piers Francis is a decent all-rounder. Piers O'Conor has
earned a chance. Nick Tompkins was ignored until he joined
Wales.
Unfortunately the whole "better 12" conversation tends to
qualify the requirements for the 12 shirt to justify selecting
Owen Farrell and only Owen Farrell.
#Post#: 73911--------------------------------------------------
Re: Barnes: Itoje must replace Farrell
DIR By: poorfour
Date: September 6, 2021, 7:53 am
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--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> We do produce 12s. Ollie Devoto has been a high impact player
for Exeter. Alex Lozowski was binned by Eddie off of one bad
match. Piers Francis is a decent all-rounder. Piers O'Conor has
earned a chance. Nick Tompkins was ignored until he joined
Wales.
>
> Unfortunately the whole "better 12" conversation tends to
qualify the requirements for the 12 shirt to justify selecting
Owen Farrell and only Owen Farrell.
>
--- End Quote ---
Devoto should perhaps have had more of a chance, and I agree
that O’Conor deserves one, but I still think they are a long way
from being at the level of Greenwood or the 12s that most other
top nations can boast.
#Post#: 73924--------------------------------------------------
Re: Barnes: Itoje must replace Farrell
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: September 6, 2021, 9:50 am
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Sorry, just hurt my neck seeing that goalpost fly by - are we
not talking about comparisons with Owen Farrell rather than
"England's greatest ever 12" or whatever other countries are
doing?
#Post#: 73927--------------------------------------------------
Re: Barnes: Itoje must replace Farrell
DIR By: poorfour
Date: September 6, 2021, 10:21 am
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--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> Sorry, just hurt my neck seeing that goalpost fly by - are we
not talking about comparisons with Owen Farrell rather than
"England's greatest ever 12" or whatever other countries are
doing?
>
--- End Quote ---
My point being, none of the pretenders to the 12 shirt are at a
level where they're obviously the best choice. Farrell isn't
ideal as a centre, mostly because his running game is limited,
but he offers enough across the board in terms of defence,
kicking and distribution that none of the other contenders we've
had is so obviously better.
I brought Greenwood up because in most positions England can
point to a player who is on a similar level to his 2003
equivalent, but not at 12. It's a perennial issue, and I've
never really understood why.
#Post#: 73928--------------------------------------------------
Re: Barnes: Itoje must replace Farrell
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: September 6, 2021, 10:34 am
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The problem there is this belief his defence and distribution
are anything special, which they're frequently not.
#Post#: 73936--------------------------------------------------
Re: Barnes: Itoje must replace Farrell
DIR By: poorfour
Date: September 6, 2021, 1:32 pm
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--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> The problem there is this belief his defence and distribution
are anything special, which they're frequently not.
>
--- End Quote ---
That’s debatable, but the more important question is: who is
there, currently available and EQ, whose defence and
distribution are markedly better? O’Conor might in time, but
he’s only really broken through in the last season or so.
The conundrum remains, and has always been, that you can only
pick the best of the players available to you, and there hasn’t
been a player over Eddie’s time in charge who has obviously been
a better bet. If Tuilagi had been able to stay fit for any
length of time he might have grown into a decent 12, but he
didn’t.
In the meantime, both Jones and Gatland have played Farrell at
12, and prior to his sojourn in the Championship, the results
they’ve achieved by doing so have justified the choice.
Right now, he’s pretty clearly out of form and to normal folk
like us, that would justify giving him a break to get some form
back at club level. Whether that’s how Eddie’s brain works is
anyone’s guess. But we’re still left with a position where none
of the other players who’ve been tried there have played so well
that we’re going “well it has to be X” rather than “we might as
well give X a go.”
#Post#: 73940--------------------------------------------------
Re: Barnes: Itoje must replace Farrell
DIR By: Quin Kong
Date: September 6, 2021, 2:11 pm
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--- Quote from: poorfour link ---
>
> That’s debatable, but the more important question is: who is
there, currently available and EQ, whose defence and
distribution are markedly better? O’Conor might in time, but
he’s only really broken through in the last season or so.
>
> The conundrum remains, and has always been, that you can only
pick the best of the players available to you, and there hasn’t
been a player over Eddie’s time in charge who has obviously been
a better bet. If Tuilagi had been able to stay fit for any
length of time he might have grown into a decent 12, but he
didn’t.
>
> In the meantime, both Jones and Gatland have played Farrell at
12, and prior to his sojourn in the Championship, the results
they’ve achieved by doing so have justified the choice.
>
> Right now, he’s pretty clearly out of form and to normal folk
like us, that would justify giving him a break to get some form
back at club level. Whether that’s how Eddie’s brain works is
anyone’s guess. But we’re still left with a position where none
of the other players who’ve been tried there have played so well
that we’re going “well it has to be X” rather than “we might as
well give X a go.”
>
--- End Quote ---
The main issue is that he has to be in charge. He’s not a team
player, it’s his way or the highway.
Don’t get me wrong, he is a decent international, but that’s it.
At the moment his deficiency’s pull the team down when facing a
very good side. At club level he had Brad Barrett and Alex Goode
to cover his weaknesses which he doesn’t have at international
level. I think it may be a case of anyone but, not because there
is anyone clearly better than him but because the team may
function better when he’s not there and his personality can’t
let let him try to follow anyone as, in his mind, that’s
weakness and insufferable.
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