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#Post#: 73301--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wasps to ban away support ?
DIR By: Eggnog88
Date: August 20, 2021, 5:04 pm
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--- Quote from: QuincyJones link ---
>
> Granted, it's a bit of an odd one to choose but I also haven't
seen many bears in the Bristol area, Tigers in Leicestershire,
Sharks in Manchester or Muslim Arabs in North London!
>
> But it's only a matter of time until modern society will force
the name change on them and probably then Saracens too.
>
--- End Quote ---
I'm note sure Bears or Tigers could be seen as offensive though?
I totally agree that the above are also odd choices. I don't
understand why clubs choose nicknames where there's no traceable
history or relevance to the club and / or area. Of course the
answer is marketing and branding I imagine, but does having
Tigers vs Sharks as a potential prem final grow the game over
just saying Leicester vs Sale to a wider audience? I suspect the
answer is no.
#Post#: 73302--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wasps to ban away support ?
DIR By: Eggnog88
Date: August 20, 2021, 5:09 pm
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--- Quote from: QuincyJones link ---
>
> Possibly a bit of a stretch, I don't think Harlequins are/were
exclusive to Italy.
>
> The only thing that bothers me about the campaigning itself,
not necessarily the reasons behind it, is that I haven't seen or
heard of any Native Americans involved. (I could be wrong). That
doesn't make the cause not worthy but just makes those
campaigning look a certain way to everyone else.
>
--- End Quote ---
Just because Exeter rugby is probably a total unknown to most
people who care / campaign against such things in the States,
that doesn't make it any less wrong. Does sexism only exist if a
woman calls it out? Besides that, as a white middle aged bloke
walking to a rugby match with a war bonnet on doing a war chant,
you look a total numpty regardless of any of the negative
connotations.
#Post#: 73303--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wasps to ban away support ?
DIR By: Mayor West
Date: August 20, 2021, 5:11 pm
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I’ve always thought it odd that a Devon team would call itself
after an indigenous people from another continent. Even in North
America they are moving away from Indian names for their
sporting franchises. I’m sure I have read on here that
originally their first XV were referred to as the Chiefs but not
after the American Indians. Saracens has always baffled me. Did
they originate as a pub side with The Saracens Head as it’s
name? That would at least be some sort of logic. The rest is
just lazy iliteration.
#Post#: 73304--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wasps to ban away support ?
DIR By: Eggnog88
Date: August 20, 2021, 5:23 pm
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--- Quote from: QuincyJones link ---
>
> I do find it interesting though that 'cultural appropriation'
as it's known, is only ever viewed from the outside in a
negative light and never as being an admiring choice of
name/dress etc. It's never seen as respectful homage. I don't
think any Exeter fans will have ever said anything nasty about
Native Americans.
>
> Not making a case one way or the other, just a point I find
interesting.
>
--- End Quote ---
Is it a genuine gesture of admiration though? Have Exeter
invited Native Americans to matches and engaged with and shown
admiration and respect that way? That's a genuine question. If
the answer is no then surely it's just about the brand, which
has nothing to do with Devon or rugby.
The key drivers for change are a group of Exeter fans, not
activists jumping on this issue.
#Post#: 73305--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wasps to ban away support ?
DIR By: QuincyJones
Date: August 20, 2021, 5:37 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Eggnog88 link ---
>
> Just because Exeter rugby is probably a total unknown to most
people who care / campaign against such things in the States,
that doesn't make it any less wrong. Does sexism only exist if a
woman calls it out? Besides that, as a white middle aged bloke
walking to a rugby match with a war bonnet on doing a war chant,
you look a total numpty regardless of any of the negative
connotations.
>
--- End Quote ---
Sexism/racism are very clearly defined though - the terms
themselves I mean. 'Cultural appropriation' is using typical
elements of a culture that you don't belong to, but it's not
clear that that should definitely be a bad thing. Lots of people
just choose to see it as a bad thing. You can 100% legitimately
question the reasons behind wanting to call a sports team in a
different country after Native American Chiefs yes, but you
can't, with certainty, say it's done negatively or to
insult/belittle. (Whereas overt racism/sexism clearly is). One
can only choose to see it that way.
Totally agree, people in the UK (of any age!) wearing native
American headresses look like numpties.
#Post#: 73306--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wasps to ban away support ?
DIR By: QuincyJones
Date: August 20, 2021, 5:44 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Eggnog88 link ---
>
> Is it a genuine gesture of admiration though? Have Exeter
invited Native Americans to matches and engaged with and shown
admiration and respect that way? That's a genuine question. If
the answer is no then surely it's just about the brand, which
has nothing to do with Devon or rugby.
>
> The key drivers for change are a group of Exeter fans, not
activists jumping on this issue.
>
--- End Quote ---
I don't think you have to invite said group to matches to show
respect or admiration. What I mean is... When naming a sports
team you either want something menacing or something with some
kind of symbolic stature. Tigers, Bears, Sharks... menacing
creatures. You wouldn't choose to name your team the 'Reading
Rabbits' for example. Saints, Warriors... symbolic stature.
I think that's what the name Chiefs suggests. Noble, respected -
it's a name that suggests importance and stature. That's the
kind of respect/homage I mean.
Whether anyone thinks that's the case or not is up to the
individual!
#Post#: 73307--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wasps to ban away support ?
DIR By: Eggnog88
Date: August 20, 2021, 5:52 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: QuincyJones link ---
>
> Sexism/racism are very clearly defined though - the terms
themselves I mean. 'Cultural appropriation' is using typical
elements of a culture that you don't belong to, but it's not
clear that that should definitely be a bad thing. Lots of people
just choose to see it as a bad thing. You can 100% legitimately
question the reasons behind wanting to call a sports team in a
different country after Native American Chiefs yes, but you
can't, with certainty, say it's done negatively or to
insult/belittle. (Whereas overt racism/sexism clearly is). One
can only choose to see it that way.
>
> Totally agree, people in the UK (of any age!) wearing native
American headresses look like numpties.
>
--- End Quote ---
I get your point and in many cases would agree, but in this case
it doesn't really matter if an action wasn't intended as an
insult. It should be pretty clear cut that wearing a sacred
item, as it is in the culture you are apparently trying to
respect, is wrong. You can't really say you are wearing or doing
something out of respect if what you are doing is offensive or
insensitive to whatever is it you are paying homage to. That's
thrust of my point.
Many of the campaigners in the States against names, logos,
chants etc have said they aren't against the use of Native
American names etc, as long as it is done in an agreed upon
respectful manner. The Florida State Seminoles football team
have the permission of the Seminole tribe to use the name and
iconography they do. The Cleveland Indians with their grinning
logo, however, had no such dialogue with Native Americans, and
have now changed it and their name. I am yet to read anything
that says Tony Rowe and Exeter rugby have engaged with any
particular tribe or representative and done anything that
genuinely pays homage. That to me says it's not about paying
respect as you have suggested, it's about selling shirts.
#Post#: 73308--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wasps to ban away support ?
DIR By: Eggnog88
Date: August 20, 2021, 5:59 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: QuincyJones link ---
>
> I don't think you have to invite said group to matches to show
respect or admiration. What I mean is... When naming a sports
team you either want something menacing or something with some
kind of symbolic stature. Tigers, Bears, Sharks... menacing
creatures. You wouldn't choose to name your team the 'Reading
Rabbits' for example. Saints, Warriors... symbolic stature.
>
> I think that's what the name Chiefs suggests. Noble, respected
- it's a name that suggests importance and stature. That's the
kind of respect/homage I mean.
>
> Whether anyone thinks that's the case or not is up to the
individual!
>
--- End Quote ---
I get your point, but again, Chiefs with the imagery they have
chosen and the atmosphere they encourage is pretty widely seen
as insensitive. Inviting groups of course isn't the only step to
take, but the club have done nothing at all. I think the point
people miss is a war bonnet is sacred. That may seem silly to
some, but again, if you are paying respect you would know that
and the importance of them to the culture you are apparently
showing your admiration of. You can't wear one and actually say
you are paying respect. That argument doesn't work, it just
shows ignorance.
#Post#: 73310--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wasps to ban away support ?
DIR By: Hellequin
Date: August 20, 2021, 6:04 pm
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I don't think there is anything wrong with the name of the
Chiefs, (seen various arguments, naval connection, general name
for senior team) it's just the use on Native American symbolism
as a sporting brand that doesn't sit quite right if those of
that culture aren't happy with it being used in that way.
Saracens, not yet heard of any group stating that it is
offensive to them.
Harlequins, not a religious or cultural symbol likely to think
it is just a joke.
Animals, unless dressing in real fur and PETA come after you I
think it's fine.
#Post#: 73311--------------------------------------------------
Re: Wasps to ban away support ?
DIR By: Rocker
Date: August 20, 2021, 6:51 pm
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1st world problems......
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