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#Post#: 70915--------------------------------------------------
Re: 2012 vs 2021 teams
DIR By: poorfour
Date: June 28, 2021, 5:58 am
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One interesting factor is the quality of the opposition.
Tigers in 2012 were still a force to be reckoned with but with
hindsight were surprisingly close to their long slide into
mediocrity. Their squad was probably a fraction past its best,
despite some standout players who are still around today.
Exeter, I think, are better today than the Tigers were then.
They've got a good mix of youth and experience and have
successfully brought through a new generation of strong players.
While they couldn't quite maintain last year's level, they are
also a long way from their decline and as Baxter said in his
very gracious post-match interview, he expects them to learn and
improve from this defeat.
We also have to consider where Quins were in their development
in 2012 versus 2021. There's a great video on YouTube looking
back at the 2012 win - well worth 10 minutes of your time:
HTML https://youtu.be/64b9-GniHHY
- allow yourself anything from a wry smile to a massive grin at
the final line of text, though.
One of the points that Conor makes is that the coaches were able
to write down 14 of the starting XV for the final at the start
of the season. How many of the 2021 XV could we have done that
for? At the very least, we'd never seen Louw, Kenningham,
Esterhuizen, Green or Lynagh run out with the first team before
2020. Baldwin and Marchant were in variable form. Murley is
probably the Tom Williams analogue - I am guessing he was the
15th name in 2012.
But also, many of that 2012 starting XV had been blooded in
2005-6, with only a couple of late additions in Mo and JJ.
The 2021 vintage has some older heads in the players who have
made it from start to finish, but it's a lot younger and less
experienced overall. I'm not quite sure what this means. A less
experienced team won against a team closer to the peak of its
powers. Maybe that's a sign they would win against the 2012
side... but I think on balance the 2012 squad would edge it, if
only because Robshaw's performance on the day was on another
level entirely.
But the great thing is: this 2021 team has room to improve.
There is every possibility that it can play better next year
than it has this. It will be a more competitive Premiership next
season, but this is a team that on its day is impossible to
contain.
(I rewatched When We Were Kings and it autoplayed the highlights
from Saturday afterwards. The way Smith's hitch-kick mesmerises
four or five Exeter defenders is a thing of beauty, a magician's
trick of the first order. There's just enough time to see them
shift their shoulders and then the ball's away.)
#Post#: 70919--------------------------------------------------
Re: 2012 vs 2021 teams
DIR By: honkytonk
Date: June 28, 2021, 6:02 am
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Like I said.........the OLH skip finally paid off!!
#Post#: 70938--------------------------------------------------
Re: 2012 vs 2021 teams
DIR By: MadMax
Date: June 28, 2021, 6:54 am
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I posted a few months ago that I believed Smith was better than
Evans and I'm even more sure now!
#Post#: 71030--------------------------------------------------
Re: 2012 vs 2021 teams
DIR By: The Kid
Date: June 28, 2021, 12:26 pm
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Another way of looking at this isn’t on the individual level but
on the teams as wholes and how they compare not only in terms of
how they were built, but philosophically.
The 2012 side, as some of you have said above, was very
deliberately constructed and the coaches knew essentially from
1-15 who would start a provisional final should everything go
according to plan. They didn’t score freely, but were
entertaining while controlling games. They only scored four try
bonus points all year. The class of 2021 scored 11 and are the
second highest scoring premiership rugby team of all time
(Saracens got more one year, although I think our playoff totals
might mean we beat them).
That surprised me. The 2012 team is seen as the archetypal quins
side, free flowing and free scoring, but while the rugby was
entertaining they seldom thrashed teams. They didn’t run up
points on everyone, but they didn’t ship many either. I was
surprised, retrospectively, how close some of the games were.
Their defence, however, was a lot better. They were a more
“complete” team than this one, which has holes in defence but is
absolutely street lethal with the ball in their hands. Good
teams beat up bad teams, and we ran up 50 on just about everyone
at some stage this year.
Granted, there was little summer rugby in 2012, so it’s not a
true comparison. There were more tries scored this year across
the board. In 2012, no one got more than 9 try BPs. Us, Bristol
and Exeter all got 11 or more this year. The game has changed a
lot in nine years, but I found that juxtaposition interesting.
In that respect, this team outshines the class of 2012 and
would, ceteris paribus, absolutely destroy the 2012 in a like
for like encounter simply because like everyone this year, there
has been no answer for what the boys have been doing ball in
hand and the class of 2012 wouldn’t have that answer either.
With that in mind, it’s interesting, that many of us (and I
include myself in this) would inherently include more 2012
players in a combined team than 2021 players, perhaps because we
all hold the class of 2012 in such high regard (and rightly so).
However, I wonder, if you pitted both sides together at the peak
of their power, whether the result would reflect that? It’s easy
to get caught up in recency bias, sure, but the team we watched
run up points on everyone they faced would be hard not to back
in that situation.
All that said, I would probably only switch the following into
the 2012 side.
•
•
but Dombrandt is a faster version of him)
•
•
Controversially, I’d have Smith over Evans too. I’d have Evans
coaching the side, for starters, but I also think Marcus is
going to transcend what Nev accomplished here should, God
willing, he stay healthy. Phenomenal player who were he born in
Wales would be a lions test starter with 20 caps under his belt
and were he born in New Zealand a global mega star. I don’t
think this is going to be a close run thing historically either,
and that says more about Marcus than it does Nev.
#Post#: 71035--------------------------------------------------
Re: 2012 vs 2021 teams
DIR By: Bolly-Quin
Date: June 28, 2021, 12:41 pm
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--- Quote from: The Kid link ---
> Granted, there was little summer rugby in 2012, so it’s not a
true comparison.
--- End Quote ---
Less summer rugby, but the Autumn of that season
(September-November 2011) was glorious and bathed in sunshine...
#Post#: 71047--------------------------------------------------
Re: 2012 vs 2021 teams
DIR By: Saintquin
Date: June 28, 2021, 1:57 pm
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--- Quote from: Use it or lose it link ---
>
> I agree I found the Dombrandt and Smith compared with Easter
and Evans nearly impossible
>
--- End Quote ---
I don't think either would work in the others era. Personally
I'd go with Dombrandt and Smith. Easter was very solid and had
very good hands but I think Dombrandt probably gets more yards
with the ball in hand because he has more pace and is a bigger
threat in attack but, I would say it would depend on the kind of
game you'd want to play.
I would say Smith as I think he can probably do all the stuff
Nick (great coaching Nick) could but, is possibly quicker.
#Post#: 71053--------------------------------------------------
Re: 2012 vs 2021 teams
DIR By: poorfour
Date: June 28, 2021, 2:45 pm
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I partly disagree, Saintquin. I’ve joked from day 1 that
Dombrandt arrived in a crate marked “Faster Nick Easter Inside”.
Now that his fitness is up to scratch I think Dombrandt offers
nearly everything that Easter did in his prime, but with
considerably more pace. He’s perhaps a fraction less powerful
and a tad less wily, but he has the same rugby instincts and the
same connection with Care and (now) Smith.
I think you could drop Dombrandt into that 2012 side and he’d
wreak even more havoc.
As for Smith himself, he’s a different player from Evans. I
think his size would have been a disadvantage before the current
player protection rules came in, but that apart he’d still
mesmerise and terrify defences in a way that even NEv at his
best couldn’t quite do. I’d have loved to have seen what Smith
could create with Lowe as a partner in crime.
#Post#: 71058--------------------------------------------------
Re: 2012 vs 2021 teams
DIR By: Saintquin
Date: June 28, 2021, 3:06 pm
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--- Quote from: poorfour link ---
>
> I partly disagree, Saintquin. I’ve joked from day 1 that
Dombrandt arrived in a crate marked “Faster Nick Easter Inside”.
Now that his fitness is up to scratch I think Dombrandt offers
nearly everything that Easter did in his prime, but with
considerably more pace. He’s perhaps a fraction less powerful
and a tad less wily, but he has the same rugby instincts and the
same connection with Care and (now) Smith.
>
> I think you could drop Dombrandt into that 2012 side and he’d
wreak even more havoc.
>
> As for Smith himself, he’s a different player from Evans. I
think his size would have been a disadvantage before the current
player protection rules came in, but that apart he’d still
mesmerise and terrify defences in a way that even NEv at his
best couldn’t quite do. I’d have loved to have seen what Smith
could create with Lowe as a partner in crime.
>
--- End Quote ---
Can't disagree but, would the players around them make the
difference?
#Post#: 71065--------------------------------------------------
Re: 2012 vs 2021 teams
DIR By: Quinten Poulsen
Date: June 28, 2021, 3:49 pm
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I think Dombrandt has some way to go to be considered better
than Easter. I think some people are maybe forgetting how
utterly brilliant Easter was for Quins, and for a very long
time.
#Post#: 71180--------------------------------------------------
Re: 2012 vs 2021 teams
DIR By: Mandator
Date: June 29, 2021, 10:25 am
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Will a CD be produced as happened in 2012?
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