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#Post#: 70792--------------------------------------------------
Re: Marcus Smith & England
DIR By: Monte
Date: June 27, 2021, 7:00 am
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--- Quote from: raedarius link ---
>
> Umaga with Gopperth nearby is better than Umaga without
Gopperth nearby.
>
--- End Quote ---
That’s what Marcus used to be like without Danny. But not now
#Post#: 70793--------------------------------------------------
Re: Marcus Smith & England
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: June 27, 2021, 7:19 am
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--- Quote from: Neil Quinnock link ---
>
> Yeah - 'shaky and flaky' only took Wasps unexpectedly to last
years' Premiership final
>
--- End Quote ---
And? :-)
#Post#: 70801--------------------------------------------------
Re: Marcus Smith & England
DIR By: Guildford Quin
Date: June 27, 2021, 9:01 am
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--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> And? :-)
>
--- End Quote ---
And... the point I'm making is that Umaga was in his best form
when he was selected for the England squad - his 'shaky and
flaky' emerged after the experience. Should he have been
selected ahead of Simmonds or Marcus then - probably not. But,
Eddie has some form in selecting emerging young talent in the
backs and then either not selecting them for matchday squads, or
giving them cameo appearances out of position - for further
evidence see Ollie Thorley, Ollie Lawrence, Paulo Odogwu and our
own Joe Marchant, all of whom lost form with their Clubs
immediately after their England experiences. I just hope that if
Eddie does select a crop of our Quins youngsters this summer, he
actually gives them decent game time in their correct positions
against lower-rated opposition, than has been his previous
approach.
#Post#: 70809--------------------------------------------------
Re: Marcus Smith & England
DIR By: poorfour
Date: June 27, 2021, 9:58 am
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Eddie may surprise us. Historically, he’s had a tendency to play
one set of tactics until they break, and then re-emerge with a
very different style of play. The style England played to great
effect in 2016 and 2017 got worked out by Toonie in 2018, and
England struggled until the 2018 AIs when they emerged with the
style that beat Ireland in Dublin and the All Blacks in Japan.
That style still kind of worked in 2020, but got found out in
2021… so it’s time for a new approach. Eddie has said before now
that he plans to use this summer to bring through the attacking
patterns that will see the team in to RWC2023.
The big question is how Marcus fits into that - but Eddie has
been watching him for the past 4 years and I’d be surprised if
he called him up and then asked him to shackle his natural
instincts. He had ample evidence in the first half of this
season as to how well that works (or not) and equally ample
evidence from the second half how things can be when you let him
play his natural game.
#Post#: 70813--------------------------------------------------
Re: Marcus Smith & England
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: June 27, 2021, 10:19 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Neil Quinnock link ---
>
> And... the point I'm making is that Umaga was in his best form
when he was selected for the England squad - his 'shaky and
flaky' emerged after the experience. Should he have been
selected ahead of Simmonds or Marcus then - probably not. But,
Eddie has some form in selecting emerging young talent in the
backs and then either not selecting them for matchday squads, or
giving them cameo appearances out of position - for further
evidence see Ollie Thorley, Ollie Lawrence, Paulo Odogwu and our
own Joe Marchant, all of whom lost form with their Clubs
immediately after their England experiences. I just hope that if
Eddie does select a crop of our Quins youngsters this summer, he
actually gives them decent game time in their correct positions
against lower-rated opposition, than has been his previous
approach.
>
--- End Quote ---
Hmm no, he's always been shaky and flaky, that's my point -
Wasps got to the final but it doesn't mean he wasn't capable of
howlers, it just means that they managed to win the ones that
mattered the most, and that Robson and Gopperth carried them
plenty. His flaws have always been on display, he wasn't a well
rounded player before getting picked by England and he remains
flawed now.
Thorley has had major injury problems. Ollie Lawrence was
treated very poorly (but no idea how his club form was
afterwards). Odogwu's treatment was odd, but he tore it up for
Wasps on return then got injured IIRC. Marchant? He'd been awful
ever since he came back from NZ, then at the turn of the year
started playing well, got selected by Eddie again, and then
carried on playing really well and improving all the time!
I share some worries about how Eddie treats players but when he
picked Umaga I thought it was a ludicrous call and I don't think
Eddie is to blame for Umaga's problems. I certainly don't think
it's a common thing for Eddie to pick a young player and their
form to go from good to bad as a result.
#Post#: 70818--------------------------------------------------
Re: Marcus Smith & England
DIR By: Bolly-Quin
Date: June 27, 2021, 10:36 am
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--- Quote from: Neil Quinnock link ---
>
> ...giving them cameo appearances out of position - for further
evidence see Ollie Thorley, Ollie Lawrence, Paulo Odogwu and our
own Joe Marchant, all of whom lost form with their Clubs
immediately after their England experiences.
--- End Quote ---
One of the attributes any international has to have is a degree
of adaptability - if you play in your position and then have to
move position to cover an injury, the Coach has to know how
you'll react to playing out of position. It a question of how
you handle it mentally and physically, so it's a good test of
resilience and adaptability. I'm not saying that's the only
reason why these players have been played out-of-position - EJ
may have seen other aspects of their play that he feels he can
adapt to his requirements - but it it could be a major part of
it.
You could now argue, for instance, that Marchant's ability to
play centre and wing is a good thing, as is Green's to play FB
and wing...
#Post#: 70820--------------------------------------------------
Re: Marcus Smith & England
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: June 27, 2021, 10:42 am
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I missed the "played out of position" bit. Marchant became a
centre/wing in NZ and carried on with that. Odogwu has always
been a centre/wing I believe.
#Post#: 70822--------------------------------------------------
Re: Marcus Smith & England
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: June 27, 2021, 10:46 am
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Oh - and Wasps got to the Premiership final after Eddie called
up Umaga!
#Post#: 70824--------------------------------------------------
Re: Marcus Smith & England
DIR By: Thegp
Date: June 27, 2021, 10:55 am
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No chance of Smith getting a good chance under Jones. He might
cap him this summer but then he’ll be back behind Farrell and
Ford. He’s just not an Eddie Jones type of player. And the more
the country clamour for him, the less likely he’ll pick him,
we’ve seen him spitefully do this with numerous others like
Cipriani, Simmonds etc.
Dombrandt won’t even be in the squad is my bet.
Marchant seems the only Quin Jones likes
#Post#: 70827--------------------------------------------------
Re: Marcus Smith & England
DIR By: Guildford Quin
Date: June 27, 2021, 11:50 am
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--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> Oh - and Wasps got to the Premiership final after Eddie called
up Umaga!
>
--- End Quote ---
Errr no, I think you're mis-remembering the timeline
(wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey or flaky-shaky ?) - 2020 Premiership
Final 20th June 2020. Umaga called up to the England training
squad 26th October 2020.
HTML https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/54691879
because of the
form he'd shown getting Wasps there.
We can agree that his call-up ahead of Marcus and Simmonds was
probably not merited, then or now, and that Eddie's treatment of
certain players has been questionable.
--- Quote from: Bolly-Quin link ---
>
> One of the attributes any international has to have is a
degree of adaptability - if you play in your position and then
have to move position to cover an injury, the Coach has to know
how you'll react to playing out of position.
>
--- End Quote ---
I agree with you BQ, especially when filling the bench
positions, but would always prefer the Starting XV to all be
players playing in their usual club positions. How frustrating
was it watching the Curry at No.8 or Daley's
Full-Back/Wing/Centre rotation when there were Premiership
players playing better in that position ? (I was going to add
Brown on the wing too but that was Lancaster)
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