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#Post#: 68220--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leicester vs Bristol
DIR By: Fearless Fred
Date: June 7, 2021, 9:19 am
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--- Quote from: Kermitpower link ---
>
> Personally I'd fix it by saying that if a team concede a
yellow card at a scrum inside their own 22, they automatically
concede a penalty try to go with it.
>
--- End Quote ---
I'd be against that. A Penalty Try is awarded where a try would
definitely been scored had it not been for the infringing
action. It's hard to say that for a scrum yellow card 15m out a
try would definitely be scored from that position.
#Post#: 68221--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leicester vs Bristol
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: June 7, 2021, 9:27 am
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--- Quote from: Kermitpower link ---
>
> Just having to make that choice feels unfair to me.
>
> Personally I'd fix it by saying that if a team concede a
yellow card at a scrum inside their own 22, they automatically
concede a penalty try to go with it.
>
--- End Quote ---
Yikes. I don't think we should give referees even more ability
to decide games, given how incredibly subjective scrum penalties
can be to begin with.
#Post#: 68223--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leicester vs Bristol
DIR By: raedarius
Date: June 7, 2021, 9:28 am
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I don't think we should be taking the scrum any further away
from its original intention as a restart.
#Post#: 68225--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leicester vs Bristol
DIR By: Kermitpower
Date: June 7, 2021, 10:24 am
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Whilst I do see the validity of the points above, it doesn't
change the fact that the Leicester pack were completely
dominating the Bristol pack until the yellow card, at which
point bringing Afoa back in turned the tables.
Okay, maybe using the 22 is a bit much - let's call it 10m
instead - but there surely nobody can deny that Leicester were
more heavily punished for winning that yellow than Bristol were
for conceding it?
Alternatively, maybe there should be a different law
specifically for when the clock is already in the red? This is
far from the first time we've seen games end in farce like this.
If it had happened with 10 minutes left to play, then certainly
it would've given Leicester an advantage, but they got
completely screwed because it was the last play of the match.
Personally, I'm glad they still won, as I think we've got a much
better chance of beating them at Ashton Gate than we have Exeter
at Sandy Park, but it still doesn't fit comfortably with my
belief in fair play!
#Post#: 68228--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leicester vs Bristol
DIR By: MaidstoneQuin
Date: June 7, 2021, 10:34 am
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100% if we went to Sandy Park we would get a schooling. They are
a proper business team in these games. Out the two we have a
much bigger chance of Sh!t housing a win against Bristol. If
Sale turn over Exeter, I'd actually fancy us in the final.
#Post#: 68229--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leicester vs Bristol
DIR By: Quanks
Date: June 7, 2021, 10:40 am
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--- Quote from: Kermitpower link ---
>
> Okay, maybe using the 22 is a bit much - let's call it 10m
instead - but there surely nobody can deny that Leicester were
more heavily punished for winning that yellow than Bristol were
for conceding it?
>
--- End Quote ---
Leicester chose to scrum again, knowing that it would mean Afoa
would be coming back onto the field. I don't see that as
Leicester being punished at all. They lost (rightly or wrongly)
the resulting scrum and were punished for losing that, not for
the yellow card.
#Post#: 68230--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leicester vs Bristol
DIR By: honkytonk
Date: June 7, 2021, 10:43 am
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Id say our best chance is against Bristol. Fight fire with fire
in terms of trying to out score them!!!! I think our pack would
give us the edge (esp is Chisholm is fit)
Sale vs Exeter would be a brutefest. Im not sure we have to
power to trouble either of them, but maybe on a sunny/hot day we
could wear them down a bit
#Post#: 68231--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leicester vs Bristol
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: June 7, 2021, 10:55 am
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--- Quote from: Kermitpower link ---
> Okay, maybe using the 22 is a bit much - let's call it 10m
instead - but there surely nobody can deny that Leicester were
more heavily punished for winning that yellow than Bristol were
for conceding it?
>
--- End Quote ---
I'll deny it. Bristol lost a prop, had to replace him with one
who had already played and thus was tired, and had been sitting
down for a while - so not in a great shape to go back on - with
no warmup, as well as losing another player. Leicester received
no punishment at all. They had all options available to them.
The opposition having a player come on while going down to a
numerical disadvantage is not a punishment for Leicester.
Leicester got cocky and thought they could take the scrum every
time. The punishment came from their own hubris - and their
inability to score before that point. Teams do not have a divine
right to win every scrum. It's meant to be a contest, and
sometimes you'll lose that contest.
I don't think it's fair to say that a player coming back on has
no downsides. There's a lot that happens to the body when you've
been involved in strenuous exercise and then just sit around for
a while.
#Post#: 68234--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leicester vs Bristol
DIR By: Kermitpower
Date: June 7, 2021, 11:27 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> I'll deny it. Bristol lost a prop, had to replace him with one
who had already played and thus was tired, and had been sitting
down for a while - so not in a great shape to go back on - with
no warmup, as well as losing another player. Leicester received
no punishment at all. They had all options available to them.
The opposition having a player come on while going down to a
numerical disadvantage is not a punishment for Leicester.
>
> Leicester got cocky and thought they could take the scrum
every time. The punishment came from their own hubris - and
their inability to score before that point. Teams do not have a
divine right to win every scrum. It's meant to be a contest, and
sometimes you'll lose that contest.
>
> I don't think it's fair to say that a player coming back on
has no downsides. There's a lot that happens to the body when
you've been involved in strenuous exercise and then just sit
around for a while.
--- End Quote ---
I'd put most of it down to Tempest who was happy to let Bristol
infringe time after time with impunity in the final 5 minutes or
so, but what sort of choice did Leicester actually have?
1. Go for anything other than the scrum = open play, which
they'd not been anything like as successful at. Remember it
only took one knock-on or other loss of possession and that's
game over.
2. Go for the scrum = Afoa back on having had a nice rest,
knowing all he has to do is get through one scrum against Genge
who'd played the whole game and must've been blowing through his
backside by then.
Either of those is a disadvantage to Leicester. Maybe the
answer should automatically be another player off and
uncontested scrums regardless of whether or not Afoa could come
back on.
#Post#: 68235--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leicester vs Bristol
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: June 7, 2021, 11:41 am
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But uncontested scrums would be punishing the team that didn't
offend so much at scrum time by ensuring they couldn't use their
scrum dominance!
Essentially you're asking for the punishment to never result in
anything other than a guaranteed score - open play with a man
advantage isn't enough, a lineout with a man advantage isnt
enough, a scrum against a tired & not warmed-up prop with a
pumped-up pack isn't enough... If the risk of a knock-on is too
much of a disadvantage then that's slightly absurd. The idea
isn't to gift a team a try!
And again, characterising it as "a nice rest" is not accurate.
Afoa went off having put in a shift, sat around building up
lactic acid and having his muscles tighten, and had to go back
on with no warning or warmup time. At the age of 37!
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