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#Post#: 62264--------------------------------------------------
Re: Eddie Jones's future hangs in the balance
DIR By: poorfour
Date: March 24, 2021, 9:33 am
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A lot of this debate hinges on something we don't know, and
probably only the RFU and Eddie know: is their priority "win the
6N in a year where our squad is disrupted by COVID and
relegation" or is it "build a squad and a system to win the RWC
in 2023"?
If it's the former, then he will probably go.
If it's the latter then a lot of what happened in the 6N is
irrelevant, and there are some elements that looked positive.
The reality is that it will be a balance of both - but the RFU's
main short term concern is likely to begin and end at "will we
still be able to sell all the tickets we are allowed to in the
autumn?" as long as they are confident of that, and Eddie can
make a case that he's learned something that builds towards 2023
and hasn't totally ticked off his players, I think he's unlikely
to be kicked out.
#Post#: 62265--------------------------------------------------
Re: Eddie Jones's future hangs in the balance
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: March 24, 2021, 9:35 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Surely if it was the latter, that was a total failure as well?
Again, if we'd tried something different - be it a change to how
we played, or a major change to the personnel - then yes, losing
might be secondary to what we discovered. But... we did neither
of those things. We stuck with an old, tired, losing gameplan
featuring the same players who've been struggling ever since the
semi-final (and for some even longer than that). What did we
learn that we didn't already know?
#Post#: 62266--------------------------------------------------
Re: Eddie Jones's future hangs in the balance
DIR By: Fearless Fred
Date: March 24, 2021, 9:38 am
---------------------------------------------------------
If anything I would've thought that the Nations Cup in the
Autumn would've been the ideal time to give some of the
potentials a run-out. It was a competition without the baggage
of the 6 Nations, playing against a range of styles & opponents.
That would've been a chance to evaluate if some of the players
who may be needed in the '23 RWC squad have what it takes on the
full international scale. A 6 Nations is always a risk to the
English coaching staff as there's such history involved that
taking a risk with selection is harder for this than for a
summer tour, Autumn Internationals, etc.
#Post#: 62273--------------------------------------------------
Re: Eddie Jones's future hangs in the balance
DIR By: Bolly-Quin
Date: March 24, 2021, 10:44 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> Kruis is in Japan, he was never available.
>
> I just don't see how it's a defence of Eddie that the big
problem everyone could see a mile off - which he scoffed at -
turned into an even bigger problem that he did nothing about. If
he had taken the brave choice of binning off the Saracens
players temporarily and we'd still lost, at least people would
have understood, and the replacements would've had a fair shake
at proving themselves worthy.
>
--- End Quote ---
The Kruis point is linked to the relegation of Sarries - I know
he wasn't available Jammy, but he would have been, if Sarries
hadn't been relegated - that was the point, which I think you
know.
In his estimation, wholesale change to replace Sarries players
may have been a worse proposition, with little time to prepare
for. It didn't seem like it was all having an effect until the
final of the Autumn Cup, which we scraped through. I can
certainly see a scenario that if he had made changes to the key
playing position occupied by Sarries players and it had also
gone wrong, then he'd have been pilloried as well - I'm not sure
people would have understood - some just don't like him - some
never have and seem have come round to to not liking him.
It was a gamble - play unprepared players or go for untried ones
- and it ended up a mistake that he and his players will have to
own.
I take your point about his scoffing - and his mind games often
seem to have the opposite effect.
#Post#: 62275--------------------------------------------------
Re: Eddie Jones's future hangs in the balance
DIR By: Bolly-Quin
Date: March 24, 2021, 10:59 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Fearless Fred link ---
>
> If anything I would've thought that the Nations Cup in the
Autumn would've been the ideal time to give some of the
potentials a run-out. It was a competition without the baggage
of the 6 Nations, playing against a range of styles & opponents.
That would've been a chance to evaluate if some of the players
who may be needed in the '23 RWC squad have what it takes on the
full international scale. A 6 Nations is always a risk to the
English coaching staff as there's such history involved that
taking a risk with selection is harder for this than for a
summer tour, Autumn Internationals, etc.
>
--- End Quote ---
At the time our great Govt were saying that the war would be
over by Christmas...
In August and September, prior to the Autumn cup, Saracens were
playing well and won many of their games, including Leinster
away - they had good form and were playing well prior to the
final 6N game carried over from earlier in the year and the
Autumn cup: there was no reason, at that stage, to see what
would happen next. EJ also wanted more silverware to make the
team feel better. They won it, but it was papering over cracks
that had only just began to form.
The cup was followed by an absence of rugby for Sarries players
- EJ gambled that he could keep them interested and in tip-top
mental form, which, I suggest they were to be found wanting as a
result of their relegation playing on their minds as much as
playing no rugby.
If, at the end of the Autumn cup he'd decided to draft 6 new
players - to replace some of the previously most valuable
England players - I think people would have been on his back
even more than now.
#Post#: 62278--------------------------------------------------
Re: Eddie Jones's future hangs in the balance
DIR By: stoquin
Date: March 24, 2021, 11:15 am
---------------------------------------------------------
What about Gatland, he is available shortly.
Retire to a safe distance and light blue touch paper.....boom
#Post#: 62279--------------------------------------------------
Re: Eddie Jones's future hangs in the balance
DIR By: honkytonk
Date: March 24, 2021, 11:28 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Asking "who is available" is a pointless question. I dont say
that as having a dig at anyone, more a case of, there is always
someone available. To the outside world, Jones was not
available when England got him. He had only been at the
Stormers about a week. Its the same when people talk about our
next appointment.
#Post#: 62287--------------------------------------------------
Re: Eddie Jones's future hangs in the balance
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: March 24, 2021, 1:57 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Bolly-Quin link ---
>
> The Kruis point is linked to the relegation of Sarries - I
know he wasn't available Jammy, but he would have been, if
Sarries hadn't been relegated - that was the point, which I
think you know.
--- End Quote ---
No, I didn't really get that - wasn't being awkward, sorry! He
did announce he was leaving in early summer last year - and
could've chosen to stay. It wasn't news to Eddie and didn't
disrupt preparations unlike the injuries.
--- Quote ---
> In his estimation, wholesale change to replace Sarries players
may have been a worse proposition, with little time to prepare
for. It didn't seem like it was all having an effect until the
final of the Autumn Cup, which we scraped through. I can
certainly see a scenario that if he had made changes to the key
playing position occupied by Sarries players and it had also
gone wrong, then he'd have been pilloried as well - I'm not sure
people would have understood - some just don't like him - some
never have and seem have come round to to not liking him.
>
> It was a gamble - play unprepared players or go for untried
ones - and it ended up a mistake that he and his players will
have to own.
>
> I take your point about his scoffing - and his mind games
often seem to have the opposite effect.
>
--- End Quote ---
I suppose the point about the Six Nations is that he knew by the
time it started that the Saracens players wouldn't have played
*any* rugby for months. The Autumn Nations Cup happened in the
same month that the Premiership ended. It's a huge difference.
#Post#: 62301--------------------------------------------------
Re: Eddie Jones's future hangs in the balance
DIR By: Muzza
Date: March 25, 2021, 5:00 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Is this history repeating itself.
It feels like the Wallabies in 2005. After a terrible year they
headed north for their annual European tour and the losses
continue - Eddie was sacked within a few days of arriving back
in OZ.
#Post#: 62303--------------------------------------------------
Re: Eddie Jones's future hangs in the balance
DIR By: Bolly-Quin
Date: March 25, 2021, 5:40 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> No, I didn't really get that - wasn't being awkward, sorry! He
did announce he was leaving in early summer last year - and
could've chosen to stay. It wasn't news to Eddie and didn't
disrupt preparations unlike the injuries.
>
> I suppose the point about the Six Nations is that he knew by
the time it started that the Saracens players wouldn't have
played *any* rugby for months. The Autumn Nations Cup happened
in the same month that the Premiership ended. It's a huge
difference.
>
--- End Quote ---
On this issue and just to add to the debate, "Kyle Sinckler has
(only) made one league start for Bristol (this season), the same
number as George Ford and Ben Youngs at Leicester, and one more
than Anthony Watson at Bath and Luke Cowan-Dickie at Exeter
[Courtesy of the Guardian
HTML https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2021/mar/25/cvcs-six-nations-deal-presents-risk-but-raises-hope-of-global-rugby-calendar];<br
/>bracketed text is mine - read article for entire context.
So it's not just Sarries players that haven't played much. I
wonder how much rugby any of the England squad played and
whether this differs from the other unions involved with the 6N.
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