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#Post#: 60185--------------------------------------------------
Red cards
DIR By: RingwoodQuin
Date: February 26, 2021, 5:48 pm
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After the recent spate of red cards i had another look at Du
Perez v Dombrandt in last weeks game. D was not really doing
much but DP decided to take him out - no reason, no advantage to
sale. Certain red card and I still don’t understand why it
wasn’t.
I played rugby in the 80s and finished due to injury. We did not
have Jackelers, but I cannot once remember being hit on the head
deliberately. In my day if a player had the ball on the ground
you rucked over them, ie stayed on your feet and walked past
them. Things have changed a lot, but have the ruck rules changed
sufficiently?
Our amazing game does not need this mindless violence. It should
be illegal to hit someone on the head with your shoulder,
irrespective of circumstances. For an 18 stone man to take a run
up from 3m and shoulder someone’s head is nothing short of GBH.
Should it matter if you are “wrapping your arms” ? it is just as
devastating to that persons brain.. Not only is it dangerous,
but it is also not necessary to play the game.
I am not a qualified ref or coach, unlike many people on this
forum , so it is up to you to suggest changes to the rules to
make the situation safer. Over to you...
#Post#: 60186--------------------------------------------------
Re: Red cards
DIR By: sussexquin
Date: February 26, 2021, 6:17 pm
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From the ref mic first contact was with the shoulder and then
the head which allowed the lower sanction. I agree though it
should have been red as there was no riding up or deviation
before hitting the head. A bottle job IMHO.
I also played in 70's/80's and remember rucking, if you were on
the wrong side slowing the ball down you could expect to be
unceremoniously removed by the opposition 'gently' rucking you
out with their studs. It was an accepted part of the game but
prone to causing injuries with careless use of the boot. Hence
the change in laws to clean up the game.
#Post#: 60187--------------------------------------------------
Re: Red cards
DIR By: KentQuin
Date: February 27, 2021, 2:55 am
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I said it at the time that Du Preez on Dombrandt was a cheap
shot. The fact he just 'glanced' Dombrabdt's shoulder first
before smacking him square in the head is not, in my humble
opinion, sufficient mitigation for clear foul play. I'm
staggered he wasn't cited.
To reduce the number of red cards the authorities need to sort
out the ruck and I'd like to see refs going back to rewarding
jackallers quickly when they show they're lifting the ball.
There is a balance to be struck to allow the game to flow, but
in the space of a few months we've gone from jackallers being
rewarded almost instantaneously for hands on ball to 5 seconds
plus sometimes before the refs blow... consistency is needed.
#Post#: 60191--------------------------------------------------
Re: Red cards
DIR By: PhilQuin2
Date: February 27, 2021, 4:02 am
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--- Quote from: sussexquin link ---
>
> From the ref mic first contact was with the shoulder and then
the head which allowed the lower sanction. I agree though it
should have been red as there was no riding up or deviation
before hitting the head. A bottle job IMHO.
>
> I also played in 70's/80's and remember rucking, if you were
on the wrong side slowing the ball down you could expect to be
unceremoniously removed by the opposition 'gently' rucking you
out with their studs. It was an accepted part of the game but
prone to causing injuries with careless use of the boot. Hence
the change in laws to clean up the game.
>
--- End Quote ---
-Another ex-70s player here.
First point I'd make is that back then, differentiation was
(usually) made that 'shoe pie' was administered with with a
backward motion -to clear out- but was (sometimes) penalized if
it was downwards, i.e, was a stamp.
Second point, raking away solely at your victim's head would
never move a prone player out of the way (- er, apparently).
'Honest' shoeing injuries were usually torso & legs in my
experience. Head stamping was just spite, & always frowned upon.
Third point, IMHO the most important, is that you KNEW to expect
at least a light shoeing if you went down beyond the ball! It
seems to me that the shoulder charges to the head you see these
days come completely out-of-the-blue for the unfortunate
recipient. I see this as a huge differentiator, then to now.
#Post#: 60193--------------------------------------------------
Re: Red cards
DIR By: Yareet
Date: February 27, 2021, 4:12 am
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--- Quote from: sussexquin link ---
>
> From the ref mic first contact was with the shoulder and then
the head which allowed the lower sanction. I agree though it
should have been red as there was no riding up or deviation
before hitting the head. A bottle job IMHO.
>
>
--- End Quote ---
I don’t presume to speak on behalf of all Sale fans, I can try
to collate the opposition’s view:
DDP is an idiot. He was clearly frustrated and acted rashly. As
has been mentioned on our board, the biggest question is what he
hopes to achieve. The ball was secured by Quins and he wasn’t
going to change that even by clearing out Dombrandt.
But...
The initial hit did appear to be on the shoulder and as that
laws are currently written, that has saved him from a red.
I think most Sale fans are under little illusion that du Preez
had (at best) a vague idea what part of Dombrandt he was going
to hit. He is a very lucky boy that he just about dipped low
enough to allow for mitigation.
Had the initial hit been a couple of inches higher and he got a
red, I’d guess there would have been some complaining from our
side but also my gut says most fans would’ve been in agreement
with the sanction.
Personally, I disagree that it was a bottle job (but then I
would 🤣). If the refs were clear that there was no
deviation, why wasn’t DDP cited? Last week (and last night)
proved that refs aren’t afraid of issuing reds at the moment.
#Post#: 60194--------------------------------------------------
Re: Red cards
DIR By: T-Bone
Date: February 27, 2021, 5:01 am
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With most of these recent reds, the attempted clear outs have
been do pointless. Even if no red card had been issued the
clearout wouldn't have achieved anything
People asking "well how do we clear out the jackaller legally"
are still missing the point. Get rid of the croc roll, get rid
of charging in and flying off feet into a ruck, and get rid of
jackalling.
Return to proper, legal rucking. It was only really stopped
because stud marks / rucking doesn't look good on tv screens and
might scare some people / parents off. Concussions, mangled
knees and torn ligaments should scare them more
#Post#: 60195--------------------------------------------------
Re: Red cards
DIR By: Yareet
Date: February 27, 2021, 5:27 am
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--- Quote from: T-Bone link ---
>
> With most of these recent reds, the attempted clear outs have
been do pointless. Even if no red card had been issued the
clearout wouldn't have achieved anything
>
> People asking "well how do we clear out the jackaller legally"
are still missing the point. Get rid of the croc roll, get rid
of charging in and flying off feet into a ruck, and get rid of
jackalling.
>
> Return to proper, legal rucking. It was only really stopped
because stud marks / rucking doesn't look good on tv screens and
might scare some people / parents off. Concussions, mangled
knees and torn ligaments should scare them more
>
--- End Quote ---
For me, the jackal role itself isn’t a issue. It’s how the team
with the ball deal with a jackaler.
I’m in full agreement that the croc rolls and flying into
contact should be more reffed more stringently.
However, jackalling in and of itself is fine for me. If a player
goes into contact and is isolated, there should be a risk of
losing the ball.
Ultimately for me it comes down to rewarding skills. Jackalling
takes speed (to get to the breakdown and into position quickly
enough), decision-making (to decide which ruck to contest),
flexibility (especially if you are Jack Willis) and strength to
hold on to the ball. I believe that these are all attributes we
want our players to have and why the best exponents of the skill
are typically celebrated.
Charging into a ruck as DDP, Yeandle, Fagerson, et al have done
needs none of the above. Just mindless aggression.
#Post#: 60197--------------------------------------------------
Re: Red cards
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: February 27, 2021, 5:29 am
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I agree that most of them have been pointless, T-Bone. But
proper legal rucking didn't actually achieve what it set out to
do. Yeah, sure, players eventually got spat out, but those few
seconds mean the player getting rucked has already done his job.
To fix the ruck, it needs a sea change in what actually
constitutes a ruck, when players are allowed to put hands on the
ball, and what happens when players go off their feet. It's
really complicated.
Yeandle flying in to take out someone who was sitting on his
backside miles away from the ball is the sort of cheap shot
pointless cleanout that absolutely deserves to be drummed out of
the game, head contact or otherwise.
Personally I'd like to see it trialled that to put hands on the
ball you must have at least one foot level with it or beyond it
- force a forward movement - and then strictly referee how
contact at the ruck is handled.
#Post#: 60202--------------------------------------------------
Re: Red cards
DIR By: Saintquin
Date: February 27, 2021, 6:13 am
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--- Quote from: Yareet link ---
>
> For me, the jackal role itself isn’t a issue. It’s how the
team with the ball deal with a jackaler.
>
> I’m in full agreement that the croc rolls and flying into
contact should be more reffed more stringently.
>
> However, jackalling in and of itself is fine for me. If a
player goes into contact and is isolated, there should be a risk
of losing the ball.
>
> Ultimately for me it comes down to rewarding skills.
Jackalling takes speed (to get to the breakdown and into
position quickly enough), decision-making (to decide which ruck
to contest), flexibility (especially if you are Jack Willis) and
strength to hold on to the ball. I believe that these are all
attributes we want our players to have and why the best
exponents of the skill are typically celebrated.
>
> Charging into a ruck as DDP, Yeandle, Fagerson, et al have
done needs none of the above. Just mindless aggression.
>
--- End Quote ---
Totally agree Yareet.
What I would add is the jacaler needs to be reffed properly as
well. I've seen many times, probably more than not, where the
jackaler obviously has put hands on the ground first.
#Post#: 60211--------------------------------------------------
Re: Red cards
DIR By: Brown Bottle
Date: February 27, 2021, 7:47 am
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--- Quote ---
> The fact he just 'glanced' Dombrabdt's shoulder first before
smacking him square in the head...
--- End Quote ---
Which is exactly how it didn't happen. You can't make it a red
card incident simply by rewriting how it happened to suit your
agenda.
I'll go with what I saw, many times, the ref, TMO and citing
officer.
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