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#Post#: 50328--------------------------------------------------
Just A Thought...
DIR By: Jimmy G
Date: September 26, 2020, 2:40 am
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Good morning all, new to this forum but been a season ticket
holder since 2007.
Now I know the word Saracens can invoke fury on here but you
have to admire their defence and togetherness, something I'm
sure some of us were hoping Mr Gustard was going to instil at
Quins.
The last few performances have seen a real change in defence,
not perfect, but a real change in intensity, although maul
defence clearly remains a mystery. We have also seen a much
greater use of kicking and kick chase, whilst our attacking play
has pretty much disappeared and questions asked about what Nick
Evans is doing?
So the point of my post... when Sarries first started on their
journey to where they are now they were ever so dull. The
defence improved to the point that they overwhelmed sides with
it. They fed off their mistakes, constantly put the ball in the
opposition half, getting the opposition to crack first and try
and run it out. They developed the kick chase as a weapon,
something they still remain excellent at, and very rarely
unleashed their backs, it was very dull. But off the back of
this they developed their attacking game over time to go with
their defence.
Now this post isn't about salary caps or the players you bring
in but about the development of a side and attitude over time
and whether this is the start of the Paul Gustard influence over
Quins?
#Post#: 50335--------------------------------------------------
Re: Just A Thought...
DIR By: DOK
Date: September 26, 2020, 5:00 am
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Hi JG, and welcome. Yes, Saracens used to try the galacticos
approach, buy a lot of big names and turn them loose
(pre-salalry cap days). Then every two years this would fail and
they'd have a big replacement shopping blow out. As you say,
since they did that deal with Rupert Whossisname in South
Africa, they build a stodgy game based on great defence and
grinding attack and just wore other teams down. Now they play
very attractive rugby (excuse me while I ungrit my teeth). Of
course, what we don't know is if they have to manage a normal
squad on normal money, can they keep that up?
A lot of it comes down to "Saracens is a great club to work for.
We're really close. We're like a family.". Of course it feels
great to be part of a club that's winning everything and hugely
successful, and that leads to a virtuous circle of players
willing to come to you for less money than at Harlequins, which
helps with the salary cap. So you have a winning club with a
happy atmosphere which in turn leads to happy players confident
they can win. We, on the other hand, have had times we're
throwing the walking wounded back in to play because we have no
other option, we've had to flog our best players because of
injuries or call ups, we've had to play academy players only
because there was no-one else. That leads to losses, leads to
players doubting themselves, the managers, the plan. So the
feeling in the dressing room isn't anywhere near what it is for
Saracens which explains some of their success.
It will be interesting to see how they get on on a level playing
field.
#Post#: 50362--------------------------------------------------
Re: Just A Thought...
DIR By: Jimmy G
Date: September 27, 2020, 3:29 am
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Thanks for the welcome DOK.
My query was more about the similarities between our most recent
games, a more pragmatic kicking game, better kick chase, a more
aggressive defence but with limited expansive rugby and the
start of Sarries journey which Gustard was part of. Is it now
that we start to see what Gustards plan for the club is?
#Post#: 50363--------------------------------------------------
Re: Just A Thought...
DIR By: Mayor West
Date: September 27, 2020, 4:02 am
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I hope we don’t go down the route of grinding the opposition
down in the dull boring style that Salarycens ( my iPad now
automatically writes that as I type the first couple of letters)
did a few years ago. I need excitement win or lose. I think our
crowds will dwindle, when we get them back, if we go down that
route. Part of the reason I try and watch every game is because
you never know which Harlequins will turn up. Obviously I would
like us to replicate 2011/12 with a winning way combined with an
offloading exciting style.
#Post#: 50381--------------------------------------------------
Re: Just A Thought...
DIR By: Monte
Date: September 27, 2020, 9:29 am
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--- Quote from: Jimmy G link ---
>
> Thanks for the welcome DOK.
> My query was more about the similarities between our most
recent games, a more pragmatic kicking game, better kick chase,
a more aggressive defence but with limited expansive rugby and
the start of Sarries journey which Gustard was part of. Is it
now that we start to see what Gustards plan for the club is? I
think it depends who we are playing how much kicking we are
doing. Every team kicks including the All Blacks. It just
depends on the opposition how much running of the ball is
possible. Our game v Glos was certainly exciting and we were
absolutely in their faces. Danny is on the bench on Monday so
doubt we will not play so much off 9 on Monday with box kicking.
Let’s hope it is a decent game.
>
>
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 50382--------------------------------------------------
Re: Just A Thought...
DIR By: honkytonk
Date: September 27, 2020, 9:43 am
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I would be happy to see Quins go "Boring" for a while if it
meant we tightened up our defence. To win things, IMHO you need
3 basic things first - Good L/O, Good Scrum and Solid defence.
Get that right and the attacking game can come. You can play
like Harlem Globetrotters but if you cant rely on your set piece
it means nothing. Sarries were great at it, they built the
basics first and then expanded on it. Whether it was pretty to
watch or not it done the job and you had to admire how clinical
they were. People (me included) moan about what Quins side will
turn up, would be great knowing beforehand!!
#Post#: 50392--------------------------------------------------
Re: Just A Thought...
DIR By: MadMax
Date: September 27, 2020, 1:12 pm
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--- Quote from: honkytonk link ---
>
> I would be happy to see Quins go "Boring" for a while if it
meant we tightened up our defence. To win things, IMHO you need
3 basic things first - Good L/O, Good Scrum and Solid defence.
Get that right and the attacking game can come. You can play
like Harlem Globetrotters but if you cant rely on your set piece
it means nothing. Sarries were great at it, they built the
basics first and then expanded on it. Whether it was pretty to
watch or not it done the job and you had to admire how clinical
they were. People (me included) moan about what Quins side will
turn up, would be great knowing beforehand!!
>
--- End Quote ---
But we do know honkytonk - a totally inconsistent one!
#Post#: 50406--------------------------------------------------
Re: Just A Thought...
DIR By: Bucksquin
Date: September 28, 2020, 4:18 am
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--- Quote from: honkytonk link ---
>
> I would be happy to see Quins go "Boring" for a while if it
meant we tightened up our defence. To win things, IMHO you need
3 basic things first - Good L/O, Good Scrum and Solid defence.
Get that right and the attacking game can come. You can play
like Harlem Globetrotters but if you cant rely on your set piece
it means nothing. Sarries were great at it, they built the
basics first and then expanded on it. Whether it was pretty to
watch or not it done the job and you had to admire how clinical
they were. People (me included) moan about what Quins side will
turn up, would be great knowing beforehand!!
>
--- End Quote ---
Without disagreeing with any of that, in relation to the "3
basic things" point, I would say yes we need a solid set piece
and well-organised defence, unquestionably, but in addition we
need to win the physical battle up front. We always sem to have
smaller, lighter, (more mobile?) players in the pack compared to
many of our rivals and get bullied and end up always on the back
foot as a result. Which in turn means the backs are not getting
quick ball with holes in the defence to exploit, which they are
usually more than capable of doing. That "smaller, lighter"
approach can work if the plan is to run the oppo off their feet
and take advantage when they tire, but it seems to fall down
when (a) we don't achieve that as plan A, and we have no
alternative plan B, and (b) the opposition has a strong bench.
To me, "winning the physical battle up front" is the equation
that sits behind "which Quins team will turn up."
#Post#: 50408--------------------------------------------------
Re: Just A Thought...
DIR By: never sleep
Date: September 28, 2020, 4:49 am
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I think that a functioning lineout is the single most important
thing that is needed.
If your lineout doesn't work, then the opposing team can give
away penalties with impunity as they know that they will get the
ball back if you kick for touch.
#Post#: 50420--------------------------------------------------
Re: Just A Thought...
DIR By: T-Bone
Date: September 28, 2020, 8:26 am
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I think any tea, now that tries to go with a lighter, more
mobile, fitter side to run the opposition's heavier players off
their feet will struggle, as the heavier opposition can just
changed over half of their team when they get knackered. The
huge number of subs now nullifies that tactic to a large extent.
I certainly see what Jimmy G is saying. We do seem to put up far
more box kicks now and wait for the opposition to try something
out. I'm not sure if this is due to the new interpretation at
the breakdown since the restart, or if it was something we were
going to do anyway. I don't really like it personally, and hate
the fact we're using caterpillar rucks. That's not to say we
shouldn't kick when we're not getting anywhere. In the past (and
at the end against Sale) we were guilty of moving the ball from
side to side and getting nowhere, or going backwards and that's
when a decent kicking strategy is needed.
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