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       #Post#: 49801--------------------------------------------------
       The end of rugby?
   DIR By: harlequins
       Date: September 18, 2020, 4:32 pm
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       With the government stopping anyone going to watch live rugby
       are we are now seeing the increasing risk of the end of
       professional rugby? Clubs cannot continue without the revenue
       from crowd attendance. I cannot see ND1 re-starting and by
       Christmas I foresee the first premiership club will fold.
       #Post#: 49803--------------------------------------------------
       Re: The end of rugby?
   DIR By: JammyGit
       Date: September 18, 2020, 5:14 pm
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       Two things, I suppose.
       1) Rugby, fun as it is, and despite it being the livelihood of
       lots of people, is not actually life or death, and isn't more
       important than public health.
       2) Professional rugby as it currently stands is a financial
       basket case on the edge of precipice before COVID; if clubs have
       to cut their cloth dramatically, this may not be a bad thing in
       the long run.
       #Post#: 49804--------------------------------------------------
       Re: The end of rugby?
   DIR By: dogger
       Date: September 18, 2020, 5:25 pm
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       --- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
       >
       > Two things, I suppose.
       >
       > 1) Rugby, fun as it is, and despite it being the livelihood of
       lots of people, is not actually life or death, and isn't more
       important than public health.
       >
       > 2) Professional rugby as it currently stands is a financial
       basket case on the edge of precipice before COVID; if clubs have
       to cut their cloth dramatically, this may not be a bad thing in
       the long run.
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       Blunt. Accurate. Worrying.
       Hope Leinster win tomorrow it will cheer me up [emoji482]
       #Post#: 49808--------------------------------------------------
       Re: The end of rugby?
   DIR By: Jedzi
       Date: September 18, 2020, 6:48 pm
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       The amateur game in England isn't in a great place either and
       wasn't before the pandemic.  My understanding is that mini rugby
       is doing well, youth level is OK-ish, but senior player numbers
       are steadily declining.  Player numbers fell by 30,000 (to
       355,000) from 2016 to 2018.
       An increasing number of games aren't fulfilled because clubs
       can't get out all the sides they want to.  Last season the RFU
       introduced the 'Game on' principles to try and make sure
       fixtures happen.  They also did a big survey a few months ago to
       find the right competitive structure of league and cup games to
       minimise further decline.
       There are several factors behind this, including larger squad
       sizes needed for games, risk (whether real or perceived) of
       injury, the increasing range of other interests and sports and
       the poor quality of some amateur facilities.
       All of this is pre-covid.  Keeping players interested is a real
       issue at the moment, with no competitive games on the horizon.
       Added to this are the financial losses many clubs are suffering,
       along with the disappearance of most of the RFU community
       coaching structure.  The prospects for the amateur game over the
       next few years are not rosy.
       #Post#: 49809--------------------------------------------------
       Re: The end of rugby?
   DIR By: Domestos
       Date: September 18, 2020, 10:40 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: Jedzi link ---
       >
       > The amateur game in England isn't in a great place either and
       wasn't before the pandemic.  My understanding is that mini rugby
       is doing well, youth level is OK-ish, but senior player numbers
       are steadily declining.  Player numbers fell by 30,000 (to
       355,000) from 2016 to 2018.
       >
       >
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       Numbers actually playing rugby at an amateur level have been
       dropping since the 70s. My own local amateur club has gone from
       running 6 sides to 1.
       Many fit young men and women are now watching rugby on a
       Saturday rather than playing.
       I can't find the figures, but a large number of clubs have
       folded. Conversely, attendances at Harlequins have gone from a
       couple of thousand to 14 thousand.
       #Post#: 49811--------------------------------------------------
       Re: The end of rugby?
   DIR By: Harleys Evil Step Mum
       Date: September 19, 2020, 2:18 am
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       As the father of a one time rather decent full back (he's nearly
       20 and completely turned his back on Rugby now).... I think that
       if someone invented the game now, H&S would ban it
       immediately....game is BRUTAL on young bodies!!!
       But yes, have heard that financially several Premiership clubs
       are on a knife edge atm....very sad!!
       #Post#: 49818--------------------------------------------------
       Re: The end of rugby?
   DIR By: Jedzi
       Date: September 19, 2020, 3:38 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       When I played (mostly at school, several decades ago) one boy
       was temporarily blinded, two boys had long term health problems
       because of on-pitch concussion and a boy I knew at another
       school died because of an on pitch injury exacerbating a medical
       condition.  That's a pretty low bar for rugby to improve on.
       Last season, one of our U14 players had a complicated double leg
       break in a game; ambulance, oxygen, morphine etc.  We lost two
       players because of that.  They were new players, getting used to
       the contact element of the game, both with potential.  The photo
       posted in the parents' WhatsApp group of the injured boy in A&E
       sucking on gas & air didn't help.
       Their attitude was that they didn't want to spend their Sunday
       mornings at (perceived) significant risk. They chose to quit
       rugby to play another sport with a lower injury risk.  Snowflake
       or a sensible risk decision?
       #Post#: 49828--------------------------------------------------
       Re: The end of rugby?
   DIR By: SwindonQuin
       Date: September 19, 2020, 8:08 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       There is a positive, this can be the opportunity for a needed
       reset in financial terms.
       Now I'm not an accountant and a don't run a business but I'm
       struggling to see how clubs like Quins lose money.
       Salery cap at £5 million is covered by 17 home matches per
       season at an average ticket price of £25 based on 12,000
       attendees. You then have sponcership, merchandise, TV money and
       match day revenue profit for other costs such as manitence and
       support staff.
       Surely a club can run at brake even or even a profit without to
       much hassle.
       #Post#: 49834--------------------------------------------------
       Re: The end of rugby?
   DIR By: Dibden
       Date: September 19, 2020, 11:20 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       At least 60% of total overheads are players salaries.
       To survive the more expensive players coaches and directors are
       going to have to take another big pay cut but maintain the
       salaries at the bottom end.
       #Post#: 49843--------------------------------------------------
       Re: The end of rugby?
   DIR By: Quinofthestoneage
       Date: September 20, 2020, 3:31 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: Jedzi link ---
       >
       > When I played (mostly at school, several decades ago) one boy
       was temporarily blinded, two boys had long term health problems
       because of on-pitch concussion and a boy I knew at another
       school died because of an on pitch injury exacerbating a medical
       condition.  That's a pretty low bar for rugby to improve on.
       >
       > Last season, one of our U14 players had a complicated double
       leg break in a game; ambulance, oxygen, morphine etc.  We lost
       two players because of that.  They were new players, getting
       used to the contact element of the game, both with potential.
       The photo posted in the parents' WhatsApp group of the injured
       boy in A&E sucking on gas & air didn't help.
       >
       > Their attitude was that they didn't want to spend their Sunday
       mornings at (perceived) significant risk. They chose to quit
       rugby to play another sport with a lower injury risk.  Snowflake
       or a sensible risk decision?
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       This is a very interesting point, and says something about both
       perception of risk, and perhaps too,  actual increased risk. I,
       like Jedzi, coach at junior level (u16) and the real two
       differences I notice relative to this point  are a) parental
       investment in what their son or daughter is doing when they play
       and b) how much time these young people - the young men,
       particularly- are spending developing their physical attributes.
       When I started playing, about 35 years ago, my parents rarely
       came to watch me and didn't often ask me, other than winning or
       losing, how a game went. I was not the only boy in my club in
       this situation.  Now, even at u16, the expectation is that most
       parents will watch training and games and many parents actively
       talk to players and coaches about how their children can improve
       and even improve their chances of playing the game
       professionally in some cases. Similarly,  when I was 15 or 16 ,
       there wasn't even a gym in my town that I could have gone to in
       order to do weights (not that I would have even been bothered
       to, to be honest) , whereas now, lots of the boys I coach are in
       the gym 2 to 3 times a week.
       I'm anxious for this not to be taken as some kind of nostalgia
       for a lost age. In many ways, the above two phenomena are really
       positive; interested parents and kids looking after themselves
       (both great things). However, both things also potentially
       increase risk - bigger, fitter bodies crashing into each other -
       and the perception of risk - better informed parents who are
       more aware. For me, this demonstrates the importance of both
       being realistic and giving good information.  The elite game is
       really not like amateur rugby, and what the generation needs to
       be wary of is conflating the risks of one with the risks of the
       other, or worse still having kids and parents think that one is
       a sort of scaled down version of the other.  Sorting this
       information out is one way that I think we will help the game to
       survive . Apologies for the long post, but I do think it is
       quite complex and nuanced - and very important for the game.
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