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#Post#: 48952--------------------------------------------------
Re: Gustard Out
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: September 8, 2020, 10:04 am
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Big Josh wasn't supposed to be Saracens' 2nd choice tighthead.
Morris wasn't supposed to be a development player, he was
someone who was supposed to fight for the 15 shirt.
#Post#: 48957--------------------------------------------------
Re: Gustard Out
DIR By: Quinston Churchill
Date: September 8, 2020, 11:54 am
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I’m not sure that’s entirely true.
I think we signed Morris hoping he could become a viable
successor to Brown, but I think we always knew we’d need to
invest in his development. In other words, I don’t think that we
signed him thinking he would already be the finished article.
#Post#: 48977--------------------------------------------------
Re: Gustard Out
DIR By: Brown Bottle
Date: September 8, 2020, 5:03 pm
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I think what’s quite clear is that Quins will go nowhere until
they pick a DOR from down the pub rather than focusing on
experienced, respected coaches.
#Post#: 48978--------------------------------------------------
Re: Gustard Out
DIR By: RodneyRegis
Date: September 8, 2020, 5:44 pm
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I hardly think it's controversial to suggest that we've moved
away from development.
2012 Marler, Johnston, kohn, Robson, Robshaw, Easter (not
academy but certainly developed within), Lowe, jth, Williams,
brown, ugo. That's 11 players, and there were many others around
the squad.
2020 a few of the same, plus Smith, dommers, Marchant, Chisholm,
lang, murley, the other centre from Wales uni I can't remember.
Not sure what happened with Ibitoye but I'll give you him too.
Earle, Morris, Ashton, Baldwin, Lawday, Evans, young, lasike,
Cavubati, landajo, elia, botta, Lewies, the new saffas, Lawday,
herron, kerrod, symons, campagnaro etc
Obviously we still have an academy, but in the past few years
we've clearly imported more and more from outside.
What percentage of the squad was comprised of academy in 2012,
compared with 2020?
#Post#: 48981--------------------------------------------------
Re: Gustard Out
DIR By: Mayor West
Date: September 9, 2020, 2:21 am
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The Lawdays will never be as good as the Robshaws Rodney.
#Post#: 48986--------------------------------------------------
Re: Gustard Out
DIR By: never sleep
Date: September 9, 2020, 3:42 am
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Wikipedia lists the players in and out from each team going back
to 2013-14
I have looked at it - but it is clearly missing quite a few
players.
The one thing it shows (although I can't say how accurate it is)
is that there is much more churn of players in recent seasons.
This may be the factor than makes us perceive that we buy rather
than grow.
Here is the list from Wikipedia: (* = promotion from academy)
2013-14
Players In
Paul Doran-Jones, Nick Kennedy, Paul Sackey
Players Out
James Johnston, Tim Fairbrother, Chris Brooker,
Peter Browne, Olly Kohn, Will Skinner,
Rory Clegg, Miles Mantella, Seb Stegmann
2014-15
Players In
Jack Clifford *, George Merrick *, Sam Stuart *,
Sam Twomey *, Charlie Walker *, Marland Yarde,
Asaeli Tikoirotuma
Players Out
Tom Guest, Sam Smith, Maurie Fa'asavalu,
Nick Kennedy, Tim Molenaar, Nic Mayhew,
Paul Sackey
2015-16
Players In
James Horwill, Matt Shields, Adam Jones,
Tim Visser, Owen Evans, Tim Swiel,
Winston Stanley, Jamie Roberts, Mat Luamanu,
Harry Sloan *
Players Out
Paul Doran-Jones, Joe Trayfoot, George Robson,
Ugo Monye, Asaeli Tikoirotuma, Darryl Marfo,
Tom Williams, Tom Casson, Jordan Burns,
Jordan Turner-Hall
2016-17
Players In
Charlie Mulchrone, Ruaridh Jackson, Aaron Morris,
Mark Reddish, George Naoupu, Cameron Holenstein,
Alofa Alofa, Dan Murphy
Players Out
Kieran Treadwell, Tito Tebaldi Ben Botica,
Nick Easter, Beau Robinson, Ollie Lindsay-Hague
2017-18
Players in
Demetri Catrakilis, Renaldo Bothma, Dave Lewis,
Phil Swainston, Lewis Boyce, Josh McNulty,
Francis Saili, Ben Glynn
Players out
Tyler Gendall, Matt Hopper, Nick Evans,
Karl Dickson, Matt Shields, Netani Talei,
Dan Murphy, Owen Evans, Mark Reddish,
Scotland Ruaridh Jackson to Scotland Glasgow Warriors[72]
England George Lowe retired[73]
England Marland Yarde to England Sale Sharks[74]
2018-19
Players In
Marcus Smith *, Nathan Earle, Max Crumpton,
Alex Dombrandt, Ben Tapuai, Nick Auterac,
Matt Symons, Paul Lasike, Semi Kunatani
Players Out
Jamie Roberts, Winston Stanley, Adam Jones,
Harry Sloan, Sam Aspland-Robinson, Charlie Matthews,
Ian Prior, Cameron Holenstein, Sam Twomey,
Jono Kitto, Joe Gray, Tim Swiel
2019-20
Players in
Santiago Garcia Botta, Martin Landajo, Michele Campagnaro,
Scott Baldwin, Stephan Lewies, Glen Young,
Will Evans, Simon Kerrod, Tom Lawday,
Toby Freeman, Brett Herron, Luke Northmore,
Travis Ismaiel, Vereniki Goneva, Tevita Cavubati,
Tom Penny, Chris Ashton, Joe Gray
Players out
Alofa Alofa, George Merrick, Lewis Boyce,
James Horwill, Josh Ibuanokpe, Tim Visser,
Charlie Walker, Calum Waters, Demetri Catrakilis,
Mat Luamanu, Luke Wallace, Stan South,
Dave Ward, Josh McNulty, Henry Cheeseman,
Dave Lewis, Ben Glynn, Charlie Mulchrone
2020-21
Players In
Andre Esterhuizen, Wilco Louw, Joe Gray,
Tyrone Green, Joe Marchant, Matas Jurevicius,
Jordan Els, Scott Steele, Craig Trenier,
Mak Wilson
Players Out
Nick Auterac, Kyle Sinckler, Phil Swainston,
Francis Saili, Travis Ismaiel, Toby Freeman,
Semi Kunatani, Rob Buchanan, Chris Robshaw,
Max Crumpton, Vereniki Goneva, Mark Lambert,
Renaldo Bothma, James Bourton, Luke James,
Niall Saunders, Lloyd Wheeldon, Gabriel Ibitoye,
Maks van Dyk, Jack Stafford, Marc Thomas,
Harry Barlow, Jack Clifford, Tom Penny
#Post#: 48991--------------------------------------------------
Re: Gustard Out
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: September 9, 2020, 4:43 am
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--- Quote from: Quinston Churchill link ---
>
> I’m not sure that’s entirely true.
>
> I think we signed Morris hoping he could become a viable
successor to Brown, but I think we always knew we’d need to
invest in his development. In other words, I don’t think that we
signed him thinking he would already be the finished article.
>
--- End Quote ---
We had no other viable option for 15, so signing him as a
project player would've been disastrously poor use of money. He
was absolutely intended to be a good alternative to Brown, not
some academy prospect.
#Post#: 48993--------------------------------------------------
Re: Gustard Out
DIR By: T-Bone
Date: September 9, 2020, 4:52 am
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Looking at that list above, we've made some really poor signings
over the last few years. This is partly what frustrates me. I
don't mind buying players in rather than promoting from the
academy, but only if they're better than what we've already got.
We seem recently to sign quite a few very average players, who
hang around for a couple of years, barely play, and then go. I
know that we need players for training, not just for match day
squads, but some of our signings do seem to have been made just
to make up numbers, but no real intention of them ever being
viable starting options / players who can put pressure on the
first choices.
#Post#: 48998--------------------------------------------------
Re: Gustard Out
DIR By: Quinston Churchill
Date: September 9, 2020, 6:01 am
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--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> We had no other viable option for 15, so signing him as a
project player would've been disastrously poor use of money. He
was absolutely intended to be a good alternative to Brown, not
some academy prospect.
>
--- End Quote ---
Who said he was an ‘academy prospect’? I said we signed him as a
guy we felt could develop in to a viable successor to Brown but
we weren’t expecting him to be the finished article. Two quite
different things.
To be considered a ‘good alternative’ to a club legend and test
veteran you need to be pretty darn good. I can just about buy us
thinking at the time that he might have the potential to o get
to that level (he won’t even come close), but I really don’t
believe we signed him thinking he was genuinely going to compete
with Brown immediately.
#Post#: 49000--------------------------------------------------
Re: Gustard Out
DIR By: Quinston Churchill
Date: September 9, 2020, 6:11 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: T-Bone link ---
>
> Looking at that list above, we've made some really poor
signings over the last few years. This is partly what frustrates
me. I don't mind buying players in rather than promoting from
the academy, but only if they're better than what we've already
got. We seem recently to sign quite a few very average players,
who hang around for a couple of years, barely play, and then go.
I know that we need players for training, not just for match day
squads, but some of our signings do seem to have been made just
to make up numbers, but no real intention of them ever being
viable starting options / players who can put pressure on the
first choices.
>
--- End Quote ---
Don’t get me wrong, I 100% agree with this, but it’s not as
though other Premiership teams have picked up players we let go
and turned them in to players that are challenging for their
first XVs.
Launchbury is really the only major example and he left us years
ago.
You could just about argue that our academy isn’t producing
enough players for the squad, but personally I’d always prefer
quality over pure numbers.
I’d rather we promote our academy grads than import average
foreigners, but if we don’t have suitable players in our system,
we can’t magic them in to existence. That goes for every club.
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