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#Post#: 48899--------------------------------------------------
Re: Gustard Out
DIR By: never sleep
Date: September 8, 2020, 3:53 am
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--- Quote from: Quinston Churchill link ---
>
> OK, so from this XV, which of the players that have left do
you think would improve our 23?
>
> 3 at the most IMO - Ibitoye, Boyce and Crumpton.
>
> AFAIK, we did not want to lose any of those. Boyce got a
decent amount of game time for us but decided he’d prefer to be
Obano’s understudy for more money. Gabs, we’ve covered at length
elsewhere and Crumpton was a retirement.
>
> None of the rest are really good enough to be regular
Premiership players. Yes, Saracens signed Sloan and big Josh,
but I think that’s in the knowledge that they’ll be playing in
the Championship next season.
>
--- End Quote ---
The point was that these were developing players. Hence being
in the A-team. They could become good in another couple of
years. We should be developing them through the Prem Cup, then
bench spots for the league, etc. Maybe some of these guys are
not going to develop into full England international class
players and will only be squad fillers. But, I would rather use
these as squad fillers rather than recruiting squad fillers from
other teams.
But, specifically - to answer your question.
Harry Sloan, Henry Cheeseman, Gabriel Ibitoye, Lewis Boyce, Josh
Ibuanokpe and Stan South
Also, I would rather have Swiel rather than Herron.
#Post#: 48900--------------------------------------------------
Re: Gustard Out
DIR By: Quinston Churchill
Date: September 8, 2020, 4:24 am
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Your point about the development might be valid if any one of
them had shown any obvious sign of improvement since leaving. I
don’t count Boyce or Ibitoye because I don’t believe we had any
real choice in letting them go.
Tim Swiel has barely played since he left. Vintage Swiel yes,
the 2020 version - no thanks.
Big Josh just isn’t very good. Whenever he has featured for
Saracens, he’s been just as ineffectual and anonymous as he was
for us. He’s not that young and I think he’s probably reaching a
point where he’s ‘found his level’ and that level is a 3rd or
4th choice tighthead.
Sloan would have been filler in a position we already have
decent depth. He would have been useful in the injury crisis we
had, but that’s the only time I could have seen him getting
anywhere near the side. We also have Lennox Anyanwu coming
through (because we’re de eloping players through the academy)
who has a higher ceiling than Sloan.
South had potential, but has not been seen since joining Exeter.
I’m not sure if he’s still there or not?
Cheeseman is now semi-pro I believe.
It’s not like our loss is another club’s gain. If anything, I’d
argue that our decision to let them go has been proved correct.
As I already said - Boyce and Ibitoye are entirely different.
Both left for money, not development and we didn’t have much
choice in the matter.
#Post#: 48901--------------------------------------------------
Re: Gustard Out
DIR By: A222Quin
Date: September 8, 2020, 4:31 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: never sleep link ---
>
> The point was that these were developing players. Hence being
in the A-team. They could become good in another couple of
years. We should be developing them through the Prem Cup, then
bench spots for the league, etc. Maybe some of these guys are
not going to develop into full England international class
players and will only be squad fillers. But, I would rather use
these as squad fillers rather than recruiting squad fillers from
other teams.
>
> But, specifically - to answer your question.
> Harry Sloan, Henry Cheeseman, Gabriel Ibitoye, Lewis Boyce,
Josh Ibuanokpe and Stan South
> Also, I would rather have Swiel rather than Herron.
>
--- End Quote ---
In an ideal world, yes. I'd be much happier if we were padding
out the squad with academy products. I'd also be asking why some
of them didn't kick on as much as they should.
I think there's also an element that they were offered more cash
and greater likelihood of first team rugby elsewhere? South got
an offer from Exeter, Boyce from Bath, Ibitoye from Agen at a
point where salaries were being cut across the board. Always
felt Sloan had potential but was ruined by the Quins centre
injury curse.
#Post#: 48904--------------------------------------------------
Re: Gustard Out
DIR By: Quinston Churchill
Date: September 8, 2020, 5:14 am
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South initially went to Coventry and then got picked up by
Exeter when Will Witty got injured. He left for game time rather
than money.
The recent departures I wish we’d kept aren’t necessarily
academy products. I regret Wallace leaving and I think he would
have been very useful right now and I think we should have kept
Ben Glynn. He definitely wasn’t a superstar, but he was useful
and generally did pretty well for us. I’d also definitely have
preferred keeping Hidalgo-Cyne, but I think we’d already
committed to signing Landajo.
I know a lot of people are against signing ‘journeyman’ players,
but I’m not sure it’s completely fair criticism, given a number
of the recent ones are only short term signings in an unusual
set of circumstances. Presumably we will only keep van Dyk,
Thomas or Stafford if they’re seen as real contributors to the
squad.
Players like Els or Mak Wilson are in a different category for
me. Both are young and we believe they have the ability to
develop in to future first team players (again - they might not
be from our academy but we’re investing in their development).
Almost no-one was excited about signing Dombrandt and now he’s
pretty much our undisputed first choice at 8. Who is to say Els
might not be Marler’s successor?
#Post#: 48905--------------------------------------------------
Re: Gustard Out
DIR By: never sleep
Date: September 8, 2020, 5:30 am
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You could be right about Els or Mak Wilson.
But - one advantage of academy players is that they quite often
develop a very close bond in their early years. E.g. they often
share houses. This makes it easier to make them into team of 15
players, rather that just 15 players.
I know that Care wasn't academy, but I am sure that Care, JTH
and Ugo used to house share. This made a close bond.
It could be that Els and Wilson are still young enough to make
those bonds.
#Post#: 48908--------------------------------------------------
Re: Gustard Out
DIR By: Quinston Churchill
Date: September 8, 2020, 5:47 am
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I don’t doubt that, but it’s not like younger, incoming players
can’t build those bonds too. I’m pretty sure James Chisholm,
Will Evans and Tom Lawday live together for example.
I still don’t understand why you think we’ve ‘moved away from
development’ when there’s plenty of evidence to suggest the
opposite.
#Post#: 48916--------------------------------------------------
Re: Gustard Out
DIR By: never sleep
Date: September 8, 2020, 6:08 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Quinston Churchill link ---
>
> I don’t doubt that, but it’s not like younger, incoming
players can’t build those bonds too. I’m pretty sure James
Chisholm, Will Evans and Tom Lawday live together for example.
>
> I still don’t understand why you think we’ve ‘moved away from
development’ when there’s plenty of evidence to suggest the
opposite.
>
--- End Quote ---
maybe just a feeling that isn't backed up with any evidence.
i will have a scan over joiners and leavers over the last few
seasons and see what it shows
#Post#: 48941--------------------------------------------------
Re: Gustard Out
DIR By: Carbonm
Date: September 8, 2020, 8:14 am
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Gustard is only in his second year as a head coach. I was
dissapointed initially when he was appointed as I wanted us to
bring in someone with a proven track record like Shaun Edwards.
Saying I feel he should be given a fair crack to prove himself,
I don't feel he's out of his depth, and should have at least 1
more year to prove he's up to it. He had a repair job on his
hands to start with so lets give him a fair amount of time to do
it, if it fails then get someone else with a proven record in
next time.
#Post#: 48948--------------------------------------------------
Re: Gustard Out
DIR By: Quinston Churchill
Date: September 8, 2020, 9:38 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: never sleep link ---
>
> maybe just a feeling that isn't backed up with any evidence.
> i will have a scan over joiners and leavers over the last few
seasons and see what it shows
>
--- End Quote ---
So basically, I’ve given you the evidence to show you’re wrong
but not willing to acknowledge it because you feel we’ve ‘moved
away from development’ ...
We’ve pretty much listed most of the leavers and joiners and
with the exception of Boyce and Ibitoye and the unfortunate
retirements of Clifford and Crumtpon, I’m really don’t get where
your feeling is coming from?
People have criticised signing the likes of Aaron Morris as a
‘journeyman’ but he was 23 and had had a fair bit of time out
injured. I believe we signed him feeling that he had potential
and might develop. How is that different to Saracen’s signing
Big Josh?
Our academy is still producing a pretty steady stream of talent
that we clearly are developing and giving opportunities to. If
we have to bring players in who aren’t from our academy, I’m
happy to sign players on potential as we have done with several
young signings recently.
I don’t get your point.
#Post#: 48951--------------------------------------------------
Re: Gustard Out
DIR By: never sleep
Date: September 8, 2020, 9:49 am
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Okay - point taken
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