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#Post#: 44643--------------------------------------------------
Re: Academy intake
DIR By: Jedzi
Date: June 21, 2020, 3:24 am
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--- Quote from: Bampotbill link ---
>
> So basically only taking posh fee paying school kids I see
>
--- End Quote ---
Several reasons for that:
1. Public schools take rugby seriously. My son is at a state
school and rugby is a 1 hour a week after school club. They
played 4 matches (total) during Y7 & Y8 and then it stopped. I
helped out with a bit of coaching and there is plenty of raw
talent there, but by Y9 only 5 boys out of 150 play any rugby at
all and that's club rugby. When they did play it, rugby was
once a week; at a public school like Cranleigh it's three
training sessions a week plus a match. (In fairness, my son's
school has produced 3 premier league football players in the
last 5 years).
2. When you compare public schools with the few state schools
that do take rugby seriously, the resources of some public
schools mean they can develop the players far more. My son's
school has no rugby pitch, no floodlights & only 1 teacher with
even an interest in rugby. By way of contrast, Cranleigh
supplied 2 of the 3 boys joining the academy. Cranleigh has 13
pitches, including 1 that is "international standard", two gyms,
astro training facilites and a full time DoR. I saw an advert
for a part time video analyst for a public school in the
Midlands. Hampton School's U16s had a pre-season training camp
in France. State schools can’t compete with this.
3. Public schools can take rugby ability into account when they
select. I was at Trinity School in Croydon on an RFU course and
the school were hosting a Sunday morning training session for
Rosslyn Park U11s (IIRC). Any stand out players could be
invited to apply. State schools, even ones that specialise in
rugby, aren't allowed to do that. If you're a very promising
player at 16 at a state school you'll probably be offered a
scholarship to a public school, as Somardino notes. Kyle
Sinckler going to the sixth form at Epsom College is an obvious
example.
Whether anyone likes any of this or not, it explains why it’s
likely to be rare that Quins recruit a child into the academy
from a state school.
#Post#: 44645--------------------------------------------------
Re: Academy intake
DIR By: Camquin
Date: June 21, 2020, 3:46 am
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Also a number of schools are giving scholarships to rugby
players.
So a state school boy that shows promise at their club's M&J
section gets an offer from a posh school.
#Post#: 44658--------------------------------------------------
Re: Academy intake
DIR By: Quinky
Date: June 21, 2020, 8:16 am
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--- Quote from: Somardino link ---
>
>
> Head has played for the senior team (which you’d expect in
later academy years) and I would imagine is already set for
promotion to the main squad next season.
>
>
--- End Quote ---
I thought so. Didn't he give a pretty good account of himself
too?
#Post#: 44664--------------------------------------------------
Re: Academy intake
DIR By: DazzaS
Date: June 21, 2020, 10:27 am
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Thanks for that explanation in regards to state schools vs
private schools in terms of ratio getting into academies. What
would you suggest would be a route for a state school child who
is mad into rugby and wants to play as a career but the parents
cannot afford private education?
#Post#: 44679--------------------------------------------------
Re: Academy intake
DIR By: Quinky
Date: June 22, 2020, 1:51 am
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--- Quote from: DazzaS link ---
>
> Thanks for that explanation in regards to state schools vs
private schools in terms of ratio getting into academies. What
would you suggest would be a route for a state school child who
is mad into rugby and wants to play as a career but the parents
cannot afford private education?
>
--- End Quote ---
Alex Dombrandt and Luke Northmore both seem to have bucked that
trend by going the university route. I don't know how many other
players have done the same, but it was highlighted as not being
the norm.
#Post#: 44691--------------------------------------------------
Re: Academy intake
DIR By: Quinofthestoneage
Date: June 22, 2020, 6:53 am
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It's important to remember, I think, that Dombrandt went to John
Fisher (which is a big rugby playing state school). The
University route is a much better option for kids from state
schools in many ways, as it allows them to get good exposure to
quite a high level of rugby with an educational back up; this is
particularly the case if they go to places like Cardiff Met,
Loughborough or Bath. The thing is, that the academy really
isn't a particularly effective way of recruiting players to what
is effectively a technical sport with late development. This is
why you see a significant number of pro rugby players who were
booted out of football academies (Care, Yarde, Strettle, Weir
etc) . Their natural skills and athleticism is, in many ways the
important bit. I currently work with an U15 club group who have
a number of players in the Quins/Surrey set-up, but the only one
who I think actually has any real chance of playing at an elite
level is a lad who has almost no interest in rugby, but is an
outstanding natural athlete. The rest of them, in my view, would
be better off playing their club rugby, going to University and
taking their chances a la Dombrandt.
#Post#: 44707--------------------------------------------------
Re: Academy intake
DIR By: Quinky
Date: June 22, 2020, 1:03 pm
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--- Quote from: Quinofthestoneage link ---
>
> It's important to remember, I think, that Dombrandt went to
John Fisher (which is a big rugby playing state school). The
University route is a much better option for kids from state
schools in many ways, as it allows them to get good exposure to
quite a high level of rugby with an educational back up; this is
particularly the case if they go to places like Cardiff Met,
Loughborough or Bath. The thing is, that the academy really
isn't a particularly effective way of recruiting players to what
is effectively a technical sport with late development. This is
why you see a significant number of pro rugby players who were
booted out of football academies (Care, Yarde, Strettle, Weir
etc) . Their natural skills and athleticism is, in many ways the
important bit. I currently work with an U15 club group who have
a number of players in the Quins/Surrey set-up, but the only one
who I think actually has any real chance of playing at an elite
level is a lad who has almost no interest in rugby, but is an
outstanding natural athlete. The rest of them, in my view, would
be better off playing their club rugby, going to University and
taking their chances a la Dombrandt.
>
>
--- End Quote ---
That's a very interesting view, thank you. I wasn't aware of the
statistics, but it does seem that quite a few academy lads don't
get full contracts. Whether that's just a numbers game, or a
case of unfulfilled or misjudged potential (if you get my
drift), I have no idea. I appreciate that it's impossible to
know for sure how a player will progress, which then makes you
wonder how many fell by the wayside that would have been greats
(Launchbury is often mentioned). As for footbal, I can only
imagine that if a promising rugby player thinks he has a shot at
making at as even a mediocre professional footballer, then the
money will be a massive attraction.
For me, the university route also seems a much safer bet for all
parties. For the club there's presumably less investment; for
the player, in the unfortunate event of things not working out,
they have a qualification to fall back on.
#Post#: 44711--------------------------------------------------
Re: Academy intake
DIR By: Brown Bottle
Date: June 22, 2020, 1:43 pm
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--- Quote from: DazzaS link ---
>
> Thanks for that explanation in regards to state schools vs
private schools in terms of ratio getting into academies. What
would you suggest would be a route for a state school child who
is mad into rugby and wants to play as a career but the parents
cannot afford private education?
>
--- End Quote ---
Got to be the best local club that's convenient, I would think.
#Post#: 44713--------------------------------------------------
Re: Academy intake
DIR By: poorfour
Date: June 22, 2020, 2:43 pm
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The academy system has changed this year to be merged with the
county system (previously the two were separate but had some
messy overlaps). Apparently the plan for this year is that
rather than running trials, they will have a scouting network
that will visit school and club games and highlight players they
should take a closer look at.
For DazzaS’s rugby mad state school child, if the school has a
decent rugby team then he will probably be seen at at least one
match, but if not then the best bet is to find a good local
club. If you have a choice, the most important criterion is to
find somewhere where he fits in well and that will develop him
and give him a chance to play. After that it’s a balance between
finding a club that’s competitive, coupled with being big enough
to have a year group that will go through at least til U16 (we
reckon on needing 25-30 players) but not so large that he gets
lost.
The first rung of the academy is the Developing Player
Programme, which is around 200 boys per age group in a given
catchment area. Around 10 players a year are carried forward to
the next year automatically, but other players may be invited
back based on the scouting system. Out of that, a handful of
players - I think 10-15 per year - will make it into the Elite
Player Development Group at around 18, and maybe 2 or 3 of those
will make it into the full Academy.
I think abut 50% of the Academy players get full contracts, but
it depends on how they develop, whether they stay fit, what the
squad’s needs are and a healthy dollop of luck. Tony Diprose
said that when they were looking at prospective flyhalves to
replace NEv, they took three players into the system. One
dropped out. One ended up in Sevens. The third was Marcus Smith
- who was only their second choice at point of intake. Dippy
regarded that as a pretty good result.
#Post#: 44719--------------------------------------------------
Re: Academy intake
DIR By: Quinofthestoneage
Date: June 23, 2020, 2:29 am
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Thanks poorfour. That was my understanding of the academy as
well, but I didn't want to say in case I'd got it wrong. My
observation would be that for whatever reason, some of those
numbers are not made public (or they are, but Surrey/Quins
appear to be reluctant to talk about them). That initial 200 in
the DPP , for example caused a lot of argument in our age group
because it would suggest that it's worth putting quite a lot of
kids forward for it, but when you look at the final number on
the EPDG you do wonder if you are raising hopes (and perhaps
stress levels) unnecessarily. I think the thing to emphasize
with any kids who might be keen for it is to say that it's only
one route into elite rugby, and that university, National
league and even armed forces rugby might offer as good a level
of opportunity as the academy does.
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