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#Post#: 44548--------------------------------------------------
Re: Swing Low is "racist"
DIR By: Quanks
Date: June 19, 2020, 11:51 am
---------------------------------------------------------
This thread is a disaster. The RFU have stated:
--- Quote ---
> We are reviewing its historical context and our role in
educating fans to make informed decisions.
--- End Quote ---
Nothing about a ban, in fact it expressly states that it should
be the fans' decision. The suggestion of a ban has come a very
obvious subset of the UK press to deliberately court the ire of
their readers without thinking about why the historical context
should be reviewed.
If BAME people are saying that they are uncomfortable with the
singing of the song, of course there should be a review. See
Maggie Alphonsi's comments that it doesn't sit easy with her,
for example.
According to the defenders, it's only been sung at Twickenham
for 33 years! It's not some long and noble tradition. I expect
half the people commenting on this thread are older than that.
If BAME people are uncomfortable with the song, the RFU should
review that and imho stop using marketing incorporating it, stop
having it on the digital displays for singalongs, and provide
context to the fans as to why. When people are telling you they
are uncomfortable, it is the time to listen.
#Post#: 44549--------------------------------------------------
Re: Swing Low is "racist"
DIR By: Quinky
Date: June 19, 2020, 12:42 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> They've sung it for England because they started a tradition
with the dubious Chris Oti incident.
>
> They'd previously sung it in clubs because an overwhelmingly
white rugby community liked doing dirty gestures and thought it
was funny, without a thought given to the meaning of the song,
what it meant to black people, or the appropriateness of such a
group of people turning that song into a dirty joke.
>
--- End Quote ---
Nope, afraid you're wrong there. I started going to England
games at Twickenham in the late 70's. I can recall the song
being sung by some in the crowd in the early 80's, when I
learned the gestures. But hey, you bash that "overwhelmingly
white rugby community" for all you're worth.
As Yoda might say: "The virtue signalled strongly in this one
is".
#Post#: 44553--------------------------------------------------
Re: Swing Low is "racist"
DIR By: Quinky
Date: June 19, 2020, 12:51 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Quanks link ---
>
> This thread is a disaster. The RFU have stated:
>
> Nothing about a ban, in fact it expressly states that it
should be the fans' decision. The suggestion of a ban has come a
very obvious subset of the UK press to deliberately court the
ire of their readers without thinking about why the historical
context should be reviewed.
>
> If BAME people are saying that they are uncomfortable with the
singing of the song, of course there should be a review. See
Maggie Alphonsi's comments that it doesn't sit easy with her,
for example.
>
> According to the defenders, it's only been sung at Twickenham
for 33 years! It's not some long and noble tradition. I expect
half the people commenting on this thread are older than that.
If BAME people are uncomfortable with the song, the RFU should
review that and imho stop using marketing incorporating it, stop
having it on the digital displays for singalongs, and provide
context to the fans as to why. When people are telling you they
are uncomfortable, it is the time to listen.
>
--- End Quote ---
The difficulty with that approach, is that there is nearly
always someone who finds offence in something.
Example: I was in an industry discussion where Sadiq Khan's name
was brought up (yes, he affects my industry). He was roundly
criticised, with people happy to back up that criticism. Until
one offended soul spoke up in favour of him, and claimed that
the criticism was all based upon him being "brown-skinned and
Pakistani". You might think this was the detection of subliminal
racism but for two things:
1) Other "brown Pakistanis" had been spoken of very positively
in the discussion.
2) Several detractors were of Asian heritage, indeed, as brown
as (or browner than) Khan.
And yet someone tries to undermine a discussion by pulling the
race card, to use current parlance.
#Post#: 44557--------------------------------------------------
Re: Swing Low is "racist"
DIR By: MadMax
Date: June 19, 2020, 1:02 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: MadMax link ---
>
> Oh dear. I have a feeling this thread isn't going to end well.
>
> Or quickly enough.
>
--- End Quote ---
Well at least I am right!
#Post#: 44560--------------------------------------------------
Re: Swing Low is "racist"
DIR By: Blutakk
Date: June 19, 2020, 1:23 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
The RFU’s PR machine incompetence now means that every idiot and
his brother now has a firmly-held opinion on a topic which:
they knew nothing about yesterday
is riddled with myths and mistakes even in these pages
detracts from the main issue
will now forever polarise opinion because there simply isn’t a
right solution.
Their statement “The Swing Low, Sweet Chariot song has long been
part of the culture of rugby and is sung by many who have no
awareness of its origins or sensitivities.” implies a pre-review
conclusion that there are highly-prioritised sensitivities among
non-singers, undermining the review itself and highlighting a
missed opportunity.
Properly handled, SWSC could have (and could yet) become a
platform for greater understanding and empathy across rugby and
non-rugby communities.
Instead, the RFU has unwittingly lit a fire that is rampaging
out of control and divisively across the news headlines!
Unfortunately, I suspect that this review and accompanying
furore will fan flames rather than douse them.
#Post#: 44561--------------------------------------------------
Re: Swing Low is "racist"
DIR By: Quanks
Date: June 19, 2020, 1:29 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Quinky link ---
>
> The difficulty with that approach, is that there is nearly
always someone who finds offence in something.
--- End Quote ---
But in this example you listened to their concerns, assessed
them, and decided that they weren’t valid for the points
raised.
The RFU is listening to the concerns at the moment, and is going
to assess them in this review. Ultimately, this may result in
them deciding to remove formal links with the song, and advise
the fans as such.
#Post#: 44562--------------------------------------------------
Re: Swing Low is "racist"
DIR By: Quinten Poulsen
Date: June 19, 2020, 1:32 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> The difficulty with that approach, is that there is nearly
always someone who finds offence in something.
>
--- End Quote ---
There is that, plus just because someone finds offence in
something doesn't mean they're right on a particular issue, or
that their offence is at all rational. Already on this thread
people have said we should specifically listen to what BAME
people would say, or at least that seems to have been implied -
but why? Is anything a Chinese guy says about SLSC more
worthwhile than someone whose direct antecedent was a slave? Is
a Pakistani's opinion more worthwhile than the Chinese guy? More
worthwhile than a white bloke by dint of his skin colour? Also,
whose opinion would be more valid - a black person whose
antecedents were slaves or a black person whose antecedents sold
people into slavery? And should either opinion be given more or
less weight because of their family history or because of how
rational, intelligent and robust their argument is?
I'm not asking anyone in particular, just musing out loud.
#Post#: 44564--------------------------------------------------
Re: Swing Low is "racist"
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: June 19, 2020, 1:44 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Quinky link ---
>
> Nope, afraid you're wrong there. I started going to England
games at Twickenham in the late 70's. I can recall the song
being sung by some in the crowd in the early 80's, when I
learned the gestures. But hey, you bash that "overwhelmingly
white rugby community" for all you're worth.
>
> As Yoda might say: "The virtue signalled strongly in this one
is".
>
--- End Quote ---
Amazing how your experience disagrees with everyone else's, and
the recorded history of the song itself. You should let the BBC
know.
Right after you phone up Collin Osborne and let him know that
"colour is irrelevant".
#Post#: 44565--------------------------------------------------
Re: Swing Low is "racist"
DIR By: Quinten Poulsen
Date: June 19, 2020, 1:53 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I think it's perfectly plausible, if not extremely likely, that
it was sung at Twickenham many years before Offiah/Oti
considering it was doing the rounds in rugby clubs in the 60s.
#Post#: 44566--------------------------------------------------
Re: Swing Low is "racist"
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: June 19, 2020, 1:55 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
And yet with all the research done people can only point to the
late 80s. I'll listen to the curator of the world rugby museum
on this, I think.
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