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#Post#: 44524--------------------------------------------------
Re: Swing Low is "racist"
DIR By: Quinky
Date: June 19, 2020, 8:53 am
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--- Quote from: never sleep link ---
>
> For the good people of India, there was something which, in my
opinion, was much worse that slavery - Indentured Workers.
>
> A slave owner owned a slave. A slave was basically a tool
used to work on the plantation. Generally, the plantation
owners looked after their slaves as they would any of their
other tools.
> However, for the Indians in Africa and the Caribbean, the
workers were to be given some of the plantation worker's land
after a fixed period. For this reason, the plantation owners
typically tried to work their indentured workers to death.
Generally, they had very bad treatment.
>
> Just to be 100% clear - I'm not saying that slavery was good -
in my opinion it is evil. I'm just pointing out that Indians
have legitimate gripes too.
>
--- End Quote ---
People also rarely mention how many Irish were taken as slaves.
Possibly because it contradicts the notion of white privilege
and your common or garden virtue signaller struggles with the
most basic concepts at the best of times, so that would really
boil their head.
Still, in another 200 hundred years perhaps their descendants
will look at the slavery that's going on in the world today.
That's if civilisation still exists by then.
#Post#: 44526--------------------------------------------------
Re: Swing Low is "racist"
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: June 19, 2020, 9:16 am
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Just lol at describing Colston's history as a slaver as "not a
100% unblemished life"
#Post#: 44528--------------------------------------------------
Re: Swing Low is "racist"
DIR By: DOK
Date: June 19, 2020, 9:20 am
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If I was singing it to emphasise how I, a white person, am
superior to a black person then that would be one thing. Instead
I'm singing to lend my support to a multi-ethnic team in a sport
where inclusivity and diversity are not perfect, but are ideals
we all strive towards.
I think Maggie Alphonsi has a valid viewpoint here
HTML https://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12504/12009971/maggie-alphonsi-admits-swing-low-sweet-chariot-does-not-sit-easy-as-rfu-review-england-rugby-song#:~:text=Former%20England%20player%20Maggie%20Alphonsi,a%20review%20into%20its%20usage.,<br
/>and I am taking that on board.
The song wasn't chosen because it's an old slave spiritual, it's
was a link to Martin Offiah's nickname. So there's no intent to
cause offence in it's selection. Similarly, why it was adopted
as the song for England supporters is a good question, I suspect
basically one of the few songs (apart from Sweet Caroline) they
all know. I really doubt there was any racial side to it's
selection.
Are we going to ban God Save The Queen on the basis of the
alternative verses that are nasty to the Scots? They're not part
of the current official anthem but have been used in the past, I
understand.
#Post#: 44531--------------------------------------------------
Re: Swing Low is "racist"
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: June 19, 2020, 9:48 am
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As you yourself have pointed out, the Offiah connection as being
the birth of the song in rugby is tenuous, given it had been
around for a while. The timing doesn't match up, and it doesn't
explain why England rugby union fans chose to sing it to Chris
Oti.
Why do you think they sung the slave spiritual at Chris Oti?
There's very few answers that don't involve the colour of his
skin. I don't doubt that people singing it now are singing it
just because, well, that's what they do, but that doesn't mean
it exists in a vacuum with no context.
On GSTQ, there's lots of alternate versions and the anti-Scots
one was ditched before it became the national anthem, so I'm
really struggling to see the relevance.
No-one is demanding it be banned, the RFU haven't said they're
going to ban it. It doesn't need this level of hysteria with
people screaming about banning the national anthem or whatever.
But it's good to bear in mind that context matters and a
reasoned discussion about the slave spiritual being sung at
England rugby matches might be a sound thing to have, if that's
possible.
Offiah himself has said he supports it being reviewed but
wouldn't want it banned as that would be counter-productive. Our
own Brian Moore hates the song being used as a rugby song with
no regard for context or meaning.
#Post#: 44539--------------------------------------------------
Re: Swing Low is "racist"
DIR By: Quinky
Date: June 19, 2020, 10:30 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> Just lol at describing Colston's history as a slaver as "not a
100% unblemished life"
>
--- End Quote ---
Just lol at the way you cut out 98% of my comments and parse two
separate points together.
#Post#: 44540--------------------------------------------------
Re: Swing Low is "racist"
DIR By: Quinky
Date: June 19, 2020, 10:33 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
>
> Why do you think they sung the slave spiritual at Chris Oti?
>
--- End Quote ---
Why do you think they've sung it for the whole team for years?
And in rugby clubs for years before that?
#Post#: 44541--------------------------------------------------
Re: Swing Low is "racist"
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: June 19, 2020, 10:37 am
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They've sung it for England because they started a tradition
with the dubious Chris Oti incident.
They'd previously sung it in clubs because an overwhelmingly
white rugby community liked doing dirty gestures and thought it
was funny, without a thought given to the meaning of the song,
what it meant to black people, or the appropriateness of such a
group of people turning that song into a dirty joke.
#Post#: 44544--------------------------------------------------
Re: Swing Low is "racist"
DIR By: Mr_B
Date: June 19, 2020, 11:07 am
---------------------------------------------------------
If something truly causes offence then by all means remove as
long as there is a valid argument (some people are offended at
everything for the sake of it, it seems). However, you cant
airbrush history and in fact we shouldn't airbrush history, we
learn from our mistakes, instead of just removing things we
should look at what we can learn from them. We should recognise
that you cant measure if someone was a good or bad person based
on today's laws/education/standards/opinions, we can be appalled
at what happened in the past and recognise and learn why at the
time it was thought ok and why now it is not. As for SLSC, just
because it was written by a slave doesn't make it a racist song,
it's the context in which it is used or the content of the song,
none of which are used in a racist manor but as mentioned above
to support a mixed ethnic TEAM. I hope this is just a necessary
reaction to comments made in the press and they conclude in
favour of the spirit in which the song is used.
#Post#: 44545--------------------------------------------------
Re: Swing Low is "racist"
DIR By: GillQuin
Date: June 19, 2020, 11:15 am
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I much prefer singing Jerusalem and the idea of building a
better, more equal society in this green and pleasant land
#Post#: 44546--------------------------------------------------
Re: Swing Low is "racist"
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: June 19, 2020, 11:24 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Mr_B link ---
>
> If something truly causes offence then by all means remove as
long as there is a valid argument (some people are offended at
everything for the sake of it, it seems). However, you cant
airbrush history and in fact we shouldn't airbrush history, we
learn from our mistakes, instead of just removing things we
should look at what we can learn from them. We should recognise
that you cant measure if someone was a good or bad person based
on today's laws/education/standards/opinions, we can be appalled
at what happened in the past and recognise and learn why at the
time it was thought ok and why now it is not. As for SLSC, just
because it was written by a slave doesn't make it a racist song,
it's the context in which it is used or the content of the song,
none of which are used in a racist manor but as mentioned above
to support a mixed ethnic TEAM. I hope this is just a necessary
reaction to comments made in the press and they conclude in
favour of the spirit in which the song is used.
>
--- End Quote ---
No-one is saying Swing Low is a racist song. No-one. That isn't
the problem at all. Taking an important black spiritual song and
singing it with dirty gestures for a laugh, then deciding to
serenade England's first black player for 80 years with it,
before turning it into a general "we sing this because we sing
this" rugby anthem is where the issue lies.
You're absolutely right about not airbrushing history, which is
why people need to understand the meaning and the context of
both the song and how it came to be used in rugby, and also why
airbrushing out the ugly side of people who have been
commemorated for spending some of their ill-gotten wealth is a
bad thing.
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