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#Post#: 44504--------------------------------------------------
Re: Swing Low is "racist"
DIR By: Fearless Fred
Date: June 19, 2020, 5:15 am
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--- Quote from: DazzaS link ---
>
> Something I never understand is why ethnic minorities is
called BAME, emphasising black people have more prominence when
according to the last census, 3% of the country is black while
7% is Asian. Surely more should be done for Asian inclusivity?
>
--- End Quote ---
The A in BAME stands for Asian, It's "Black, Asian, & Minority
Ethnic". As I understand it the primary issues are that it is
that Black history and the UK's part in it that is most
problematic. While our time as rulers of India, the Partition of
India & Pakistan etc hardly do us any favours, we didn't enslave
the Sub-continent, selling the people as property to other White
men a third of the world away.
Regarding the issue of removing statues, imagine that you are a
black child in Bristol. You're walking past the statue of
Colston with your Mum or Dad & you ask who the statue is of &
what did he do to get a statue. How would you feel as a child to
hear that it's a statue of a man who bought and sold people like
you into slavery, removing parents from children as they did it,
and they put a statue up to commemorate him.
#Post#: 44505--------------------------------------------------
Re: Swing Low is "racist"
DIR By: Monte
Date: June 19, 2020, 5:47 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Colston actually built schools and did a huge amount for Bristol
which is why he has statues. I don’t condone his wealth
acquisition but the UK stopped the slave trade much earlier than
many countries. You can’t wipe out our history if they take down
the Rhodes statue fine but what are all the 100s of Rhodes
scholars still to come going to think? You can’t take the money
as well? A number of buildings all over the country Will have to
be pulled down as well. Then there is Gladstone ... I could go
on. Far worse things are going on now and in the last 20 years.
USA destroying local chicken market in Jamaica by flooding the
island with US birds destroyed the living on many Jamaicans. The
same with the wretched US banana trade flooding the whole world
with horrible tasteless bananas trying to destroy the Caribbean
Islands traditional banana farms owned and worked by locals.
These people are now modern slaves to the US conglomerates. Then
you have the Philippino house staff working for Middle Eastern
families now who have their passports taken away when they come
here .....
#Post#: 44509--------------------------------------------------
Re: Swing Low is "racist"
DIR By: DazzaS
Date: June 19, 2020, 5:59 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Fearless Fred link ---
>
> The A in BAME stands for Asian, It's "Black, Asian, & Minority
Ethnic". As I understand it the primary issues are that it is
that Black history and the UK's part in it that is most
problematic. While our time as rulers of India, the Partition of
India & Pakistan etc hardly do us any favours, we didn't enslave
the Sub-continent, selling the people as property to other White
men a third of the world away.
> Regarding the issue of removing statues, imagine that you are
a black child in Bristol. You're walking past the statue of
Colston with your Mum or Dad & you ask who the statue is of &
what did he do to get a statue. How would you feel as a child to
hear that it's a statue of a man who bought and sold people like
you into slavery, removing parents from children as they did it,
and they put a statue up to commemorate him.
>
>
--- End Quote ---
Interesting reply.
Thanks for that.
Point of note, I was told A in BAME was "and". Learn something
new every day
#Post#: 44510--------------------------------------------------
Re: Swing Low is "racist"
DIR By: MonsterQuin
Date: June 19, 2020, 6:02 am
---------------------------------------------------------
It would be interesting to see how the RFU would ban 10’s of
thousands of fans singing Swing Low - the stewards would be very
busy policing that!
#Post#: 44511--------------------------------------------------
Re: Swing Low is "racist"
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: June 19, 2020, 6:03 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I'm not sure what listing injustices is going to do here. All of
those things are bad! It's not a contest! There was a specific
local complaint about Colston - a man who profited from human
misery - having a statute commemorating him without even a
mention of how he earned his money. Also, someone graffitied
Churchill's statue, which happens pretty much every time there's
a protest or a demonstration. Then the RFU said they're going to
look into the use of Swing Low.
Cue frothing about Black Lives Matter, about how apparently
Swing Low is being called racist, about how the use of songs
can't be racist or inappropriate if they're not racist songs
themselves, and so on.
The statue thing really depresses me. How hard is it to
understand that turning flawed people into heroes and
whitewashing the actually quite heinous stuff they did is going
to end up with some pushback? When you hold up these people as
paragons to be worshipped, then expect to deal with grievance
down the line. What wipes out history more, removal of a statue
of a slave trader, or putting up a statue to glorify a slave
trader while making sure there's never any reference to him
being a slave trader?
The Nazis: Banned Swing Low, Sweet Chariot because they
considered it "Negro Music" along with a lot of other works
The RFU: Have announced they're looking into the singing of the
song at England games, because singing a black spiritual mostly
famous for being sung by white crowds at a black player in the
80s might not be appropriate
definitely the same thing, top work there
#Post#: 44512--------------------------------------------------
Re: Swing Low is "racist"
DIR By: Quinten Poulsen
Date: June 19, 2020, 6:04 am
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I expect the RFU will review it and find no reason to ban it.
#Post#: 44514--------------------------------------------------
Re: Swing Low is "racist"
DIR By: Boonie
Date: June 19, 2020, 6:27 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I think I have garnered from this thread:
1) There is definitely a problem in most if not all communities
around the world in regards to race, and it is a multi-faceted
and multi-layered issue that affects communities to varying
degrees, ranging from casual discrimination through to cold
blooded murder.
2) The singing or not singing of Swing Low is not going to make
any difference to this issue. The issue is far more complex than
can be solved by this relatively insignificant action.
3) People have differing views on the seriousness or otherwise
of singing Swing Low and can occasionally conflate this with the
wider and deeper issues in society.
That about right?
#Post#: 44519--------------------------------------------------
Re: Swing Low is "racist"
DIR By: Quinky
Date: June 19, 2020, 7:23 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JammyGit link ---
>
> I'm not sure what listing injustices is going to do here. All
of those things are bad! It's not a contest! There was a
specific local complaint about Colston - a man who profited from
human misery - having a statute commemorating him without even a
mention of how he earned his money. Also, someone graffitied
Churchill's statue, which happens pretty much every time there's
a protest or a demonstration. Then the RFU said they're going to
look into the use of Swing Low.
>
> Cue frothing about Black Lives Matter, about how apparently
Swing Low is being called racist, about how the use of songs
can't be racist or inappropriate if they're not racist songs
themselves, and so on.
>
> The statue thing really depresses me. How hard is it to
understand that turning flawed people into heroes and
whitewashing the actually quite heinous stuff they did is going
to end up with some pushback? When you hold up these people as
paragons to be worshipped, then expect to deal with grievance
down the line. What wipes out history more, removal of a statue
of a slave trader, or putting up a statue to glorify a slave
trader while making sure there's never any reference to him
being a slave trader?
>
>
> The Nazis: Banned Swing Low, Sweet Chariot because they
considered it "Negro Music" along with a lot of other works
> The RFU: Have announced they're looking into the singing of
the song at England games, because singing a black spiritual
mostly famous for being sung by white crowds at a black player
in the 80s might not be appropriate
>
> definitely the same thing, top work there
>
--- End Quote ---
I think you'll struggle to find anyone with a 100% unblemished
life. So it comes down to your threshold - which may be more or
less tolerant than the next person.
The answer might be democracy - you know, votes and stuff. Like
the vote on whether to remove Colston's statue. The result was
that it should stay.
Ultimately the statue wasn't commemorating how he gained his
wealth - it was commemorating the good that he did with it.
But hey, if you want to criticise racism, go for it. I think
you'll find the reality a lot different to the simple approach
that you seem to employ.
#Post#: 44520--------------------------------------------------
Re: Swing Low is "racist"
DIR By: Shack
Date: June 19, 2020, 7:36 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Personally as a white older middle class man I cant see the
problem, the song has been sung in rugby clubs with actions for
decades.
However if black mixed race or other ethnic minority English
players say that they find it offensive then I am much more
inclined to take note.
It Itoje or Kyle or whoever came out and say it offends them
then i think I would listen
#Post#: 44521--------------------------------------------------
Re: Swing Low is "racist"
DIR By: never sleep
Date: June 19, 2020, 7:39 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Fearless Fred link ---
>
> The A in BAME stands for Asian, It's "Black, Asian, & Minority
Ethnic". As I understand it the primary issues are that it is
that Black history and the UK's part in it that is most
problematic. While our time as rulers of India, the Partition of
India & Pakistan etc hardly do us any favours, we didn't enslave
the Sub-continent, selling the people as property to other White
men a third of the world away.
>
>
--- End Quote ---
For the good people of India, there was something which, in my
opinion, was much worse that slavery - Indentured Workers.
A slave owner owned a slave. A slave was basically a tool used
to work on the plantation. Generally, the plantation owners
looked after their slaves as they would any of their other
tools.
However, for the Indians in Africa and the Caribbean, the
workers were to be given some of the plantation worker's land
after a fixed period. For this reason, the plantation owners
typically tried to work their indentured workers to death.
Generally, they had very bad treatment.
Just to be 100% clear - I'm not saying that slavery was good -
in my opinion it is evil. I'm just pointing out that Indians
have legitimate gripes too.
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