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#Post#: 37985--------------------------------------------------
Re: O/T - Should there be relegation from the 6 nations?
DIR By: thatchapcarnell
Date: February 5, 2020, 5:09 am
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What about a conference system? Two conferences of four teams -
you could bring in Georgia and Spain.
Top two from each conference qualify for semis and then a final.
Bottom two do the same but for a "shield" trophy.
The most games any team plays stays at five so no greater strain
on players than current system. All games remain competitive.
The only downside is you'd need to seed it and some years you
won't get a Calcutta Cup for eg.
TV money should still be solid, same number of home games. Helps
development of smaller nations. Rather than the Six Nations it
essentially becomes the rugby equivalent of football's European
Championships.
#Post#: 37987--------------------------------------------------
Re: O/T - Should there be relegation from the 6 nations?
DIR By: Fearless Fred
Date: February 5, 2020, 5:35 am
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--- Quote from: thatchapcarnell link ---
>
> What about a conference system? Two conferences of four teams
- you could bring in Georgia and Spain.
>
> Top two from each conference qualify for semis and then a
final. Bottom two do the same but for a "shield" trophy.
>
> The most games any team plays stays at five so no greater
strain on players than current system. All games remain
competitive.
>
> The only downside is you'd need to seed it and some years you
won't get a Calcutta Cup for eg.
>
> TV money should still be solid, same number of home games.
Helps development of smaller nations. Rather than the Six
Nations it essentially becomes the rugby equivalent of
football's European Championships.
>
--- End Quote ---
I can sort of see the rationale behind that, but there's a few
issues that would be difficult to iron out:
i) You could only *guarantee* any one team having 2 home games
every year, whereas at the moment you're guaranteed 3 home games
every other year. (Pool stages work out as two home one away for
everyone)
ii) Unless you do a complete re-jig of the calendar, there's
virtually no time to sell the tickets & for fans to arrange
flights/hotels/time off etc to the SF and F rounds
iii) You basically kill off the concept of all the existing
sub-trophies like the Calcutta Cup (as you say) but also the
idea of a Grand Slam, Triple Crown, etc.
iv) If you seed it as you suggest, assuming the seeding is based
off the WR rankings, when do you do the seeding? Ideally it
would be after the Autumn Internationals, but again that
seriously hampers the home unions in terms of setting up the
games. Do the seedings based off rankings after the previous
"6N" competition, and you risk having distinctly lopsided
conferences.
#Post#: 37995--------------------------------------------------
Re: O/T - Should there be relegation from the 6 nations?
DIR By: Boonie
Date: February 5, 2020, 6:15 am
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If England play as badly against Scotland as they did against
France, we'd need to beat Italy to avoid relegation this year -
because that is what relegation could mean. Italy have it in
them to win the occasional match, and you don't want to be the
wooden spoon side that year if they happen to pull a rabbit out
of the hat.
Having said that - I still like the idea of a two-tier setup,
but why 4? Surely there must be an argument to bring in more
European teams to fill out two leagues of six?
Georgia
Spain
Russia
Portugal
Netherlands
Belgium/Germany
That's six/seven top-30 sides, and with that kind of competition
and interest, surely that would help bring the minnows up to a
better standard? There's a lot of talk about the Pacific
Islanders and the help they need, both financially and in terms
of competition against tier 1 sides. Why not look to our own
back yard and see what we can do for grass-roots in Europe?
#Post#: 38006--------------------------------------------------
Re: O/T - Should there be relegation from the 6 nations?
DIR By: Bolly-Quin
Date: February 5, 2020, 7:28 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Boonie link ---
>
> ....Surely there must be an argument to bring in more European
teams to fill out two leagues of six?
>
> Georgia
> Spain
> Russia
> Portugal
> Netherlands
> Belgium/Germany
>
> That's six/seven top-30 sides, and with that kind of
competition and interest, surely that would help bring the
minnows up to a better standard? There's a lot of talk about the
Pacific Islanders and the help they need, both financially and
in terms of competition against tier 1 sides. Why not look to
our own back yard and see what we can do for grass-roots in
Europe?
>
--- End Quote ---
It already exists: Rugby Europe Championship
See my post on this thread yesterday for more detail and link to
present Tier 2 Euro league...
#Post#: 38007--------------------------------------------------
Re: O/T - Should there be relegation from the 6 nations?
DIR By: Fearless Fred
Date: February 5, 2020, 7:32 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Boonie link ---
>
> If England play as badly against Scotland as they did against
France, we'd need to beat Italy to avoid relegation this year -
because that is what relegation could mean. Italy have it in
them to win the occasional match, and you don't want to be the
wooden spoon side that year if they happen to pull a rabbit out
of the hat.
>
> Having said that - I still like the idea of a two-tier setup,
but why 4? Surely there must be an argument to bring in more
European teams to fill out two leagues of six?
>
> Georgia
> Spain
> Russia
> Portugal
> Netherlands
> Belgium/Germany
>
> That's six/seven top-30 sides, and with that kind of
competition and interest, surely that would help bring the
minnows up to a better standard? There's a lot of talk about the
Pacific Islanders and the help they need, both financially and
in terms of competition against tier 1 sides. Why not look to
our own back yard and see what we can do for grass-roots in
Europe?
>
--- End Quote ---
If there's to be a playoff at the end to generate a final
champion (even a simple top team vs top team clash) that still
has issues of:
i) lengthening the international window further (Both teams
would want to have a rest week between the last group game & the
final I would guess).
ii) Location of the final (I would guess the competition would
rotate it around key stadia like Twickenham, Millennium, Stade
de France, Muddyfield, Aviva)
iii) ticketing for fans at the final (along with travel, hotel,
time off, etc) at very short notice.
iv) While Georgia & possibly Russia are capable of a reasonable
game against some of the existing 6N teams, games like Portugal
vs Wales, England vs Netherlands would be cricket-score worthy.
Hardly a good spectacle for the sport.
#Post#: 38008--------------------------------------------------
Re: O/T - Should there be relegation from the 6 nations?
DIR By: Fearless Fred
Date: February 5, 2020, 7:34 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Bolly-Quin link ---
>
> It already exists: Rugby Europe Championship
>
> See my post on this thread yesterday for more detail and link
to present Tier 2 Euro league...
>
--- End Quote ---
I think Boonie was suggesting expanding it to two parallel
conferences of 6 where you would have 3 current 6N teams and 3
of the tier 2 competition teams in each conference, in the way
that the P14 is arranged...
#Post#: 38012--------------------------------------------------
Re: O/T - Should there be relegation from the 6 nations?
DIR By: Bolly-Quin
Date: February 5, 2020, 8:05 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Fearless Fred link ---
>
> I think Boonie was suggesting expanding it to two parallel
conferences of 6 where you would have 3 current 6N teams and 3
of the tier 2 competition teams in each conference, in the way
that the P14 is arranged...
>
--- End Quote ---
Fair enough - apologies Boonie!
#Post#: 38018--------------------------------------------------
Re: O/T - Should there be relegation from the 6 nations?
DIR By: TeddingtonQuin
Date: February 5, 2020, 9:18 am
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--- Quote from: Bolly-Quin link ---
>
> There's quite a big difference between Italy and Georgia rugby
- the former has ~ 80,000 players in ~ 1000 clubs where as
Georgia has ~ 20,000 players in ~ 200 clubs (figures rounded up)
however, Italy (12) are only 1 place above Georgia (13) in the
IRB table.
>
> Georgia play in the Rugby Europe Championship with Spain (16)
Romania (19). These are followed by Russia (20), Belgium (27)
and Germany (28). This will be the 4th year of the Championship,
which has been won for the last 3 years (i.e. every year it has
been played) by Georgia. So if there is a club to be promoted,
it should be Georgia. Here are the results and standings from
last year:-
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Rugby_Europe_Championship
>
> I find it hard to foresee any other result than a flip between
promoted/relegated club each year, with Italy and Georgia
swapping every year (or two years, as FF says): how much good
will this do? Unless either country can considerably increase
interest and participation, it would be hard to see how they can
improve to a point that they would stay "up" every year.
>
> Watching Italian sides play Quins over the years in European
rugby, they are getting better - Treviso finished 3rd last year
and neither team sit at the bottom of the league tables this
year (albeit by one place) but nationally, they have had a poor
run of form for the last 6 or 7 years. But I would argue that
since 2015 (when no European teams reached SF stage in England
RWC), Ireland (several wins against ABs), England (SF win
against AB, plus domination of Australia, if not SA) and Wales
have all improved a fair deal and winning against mercurial
France and Scotland not easy for Italy.
>
> I'd suggest that Italy should stay in 6N (unless Georgia
really do push on and overtake them for several years in the IRB
table) and that the Rugby Europe Championship be given more
prominence - TV viewing here would be a good start - and that
Tier 1 "A" tours to those European Tier 2 should increase.
>
> Keen Brexiteers among us might prefer that England
unilaterally withdraw from the 6N and join a new league based in
Florida with US, Canada and Mexico, just to show we can still
win something, if not a good trade deal. ;)
>
--- End Quote ---
Georgia have improved immensely in the period that Italy have
had the advantage of playing in the 6N yet Italy have not
however so it could be argued that Georgia will continue to
improve and could easily overtake Italy by being given the
opportunity to compete at a higher level
The 1st year that I can find rankings for is 2004 when Italy had
been in the 6N for 4 years. They were 11th in the IRB rankings
as at 31/12/2004, Georgia were 20th with a difference in ranking
points of 11.43
At the same point in 2019, Italy were 12th and Georgia 14th with
0.78 ranking points between them.
Italy have been bottom of the table for 14 out of 20 years so
far including the last 5 on the bounce.
I think it is high time for someone else to have a go as they're
not getting any better, despite their club sides improving
IMHO of course!
#Post#: 38022--------------------------------------------------
Re: O/T - Should there be relegation from the 6 nations?
DIR By: Boonie
Date: February 5, 2020, 9:48 am
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Either two parallel conferences, or alternatively, a League 1 /
League 2 setup, with promotion and relegation between the two
leagues. That would take longer to get the investment into the
lower league, but would give them something meaningful to play
for, and give them a more structured and frequent set of
matches.
There must be a way to bring up the standard of European/NH
rugby generally, but unless there is something to play for,
there won't be the local investment.
#Post#: 38024--------------------------------------------------
Re: O/T - Should there be relegation from the 6 nations?
DIR By: Domestos
Date: February 5, 2020, 10:12 am
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It ain't broke, so don't fix it.
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